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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:46:36 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (108 lines)

I think it's clear that in e.g. "to give up" we have a single verb
that just happens to be split into two words (not just spellingwise,
but syntactically: you say "give it up", not *"give up it").  I think
calling "up" a preposition in that case is laughable. In "He gave up
the ghost", is "up the ghost" an adverbial prepositional phrase
describing where the giving took place?

There's at least a semantic difference between such compound verbs and
ones like "to play through", where the usual meaning of the
preposition still seems relevant to the meaning of the whole (I almost
typed "hole" - ah, context). But is there a syntactic one?

AIU the standard analysis,  "through" is still a preposition there,
even though it's not visibly or audibly preposited.  The object of the
preposition is present, just implicit instead of explicit.

These are two points on a continuum of lexical drift. Is there a
middle ground where the preposition is no longer governing an
understood object but not yet part of the verb?  What defines the
transition - loss of the semantic contribution of the preposition?
And at that point, what do you call it?  I'd say it's no longer
functioning as a preposition if there's no implied object; maybe an
adverb or just "particle".

But all of this is sort of orthogonal to the larger point.  There may
be some justification for categorizing English words as prepositions,
and then retaining that category even when they're not being used as
prepositions. But IMO that's different from taking some language which
only has inpositions or postpositions and calling them "prepositions"
solely based on their function.

On 4/20/09, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 2009/4/20 Tristan McLeay <[log in to unmask]>
>
>>
>> I've always thought German's "separable verbs" were just a tool for
>> learning language and not a linguistically significant phenomenon. e.g.
>> prefixes go between the parts so the inflected infinitive (the OE
>> term; I forget what the German term is, if I ever knew) of "mitkommen"
>> is "mitzukommen", so the preposition is evidently separated even when
>> it's spelt together as one word. In that regard, the difference between
>> English and German separable prefix verbs is the word order: In
>> English, verbs come early in the sentence (almost invariably before the
>> preposition); in German, the verb sometimes comes late in the sentence,
>> and when it does, there's nothing in between the preposition and the
>> verb, so they're often spelt as one word.
>>
>> But that's just my best guess, trying to understand what's really
>> happening.
>>
>
> I'd say your guess is mistaken, probably by lack of information. I live in
> the Netherlands, and Dutch is a language that has a lot of those separable
> verbs (they are still a relatively productive category). And talking to
> people here (including a lot of very linguistically naïve people), they view
> separable verbs very much as *one* word, that just happens to be made of
> separable constituents. When asking people what "op" is in "ik geef het op":
> I give up, they will simply say: "It's part of the verb". If you press them,
> they might say: "well, it could be some kind of adverb", but only with great
> resistance. They would never call it a preposition, although they are aware
> that it's related to the preposition "op": on (not that not all separable
> verbs have a part that resembles a preposition. In "teleurstellen": to
> disappoint, the "teleur" part is does not even exist as a separate word.
> There's no preposition *"teleur" and no adverb *"teleur" in Dutch as it's
> spoken nowadays - it might have been a noun or adverb in the past, but
> nowadays it's only used in the verb "teleurstellen" -. Still,
> "teleurstellen" is a separable verb).
>
> Another important thing is that linguistically naïve Dutch people are just
> as much aware that verbs like "vertellen": to tell, or "onderbreken": to
> interrupt are made of two constituents, even though they are not separable
> (for instance, that first constituent prevents the "ge-" prefix of the past
> participle to be added to the verb: "verteld"": told, "onderbroken":
> interrupted. To Dutch people, it's not much of a different phenomenon to
> prevent the addition of a prefix than it is to have it put between two parts
> of a verb).
>
> But maybe the most important thing is that you can't always guess from the
> constituents of a verb whether it will be separable or inseparable.
> "Doorzetten": to carry on is a separable verb, while "doorstaan": to endure,
> is not, despite the fact that the first one is less of a transparent
> compound than the second one ("door" as a preposition means "through",
> "zetten" means "to place, to set" and "staan" means "to stand"). "Doorstaan"
> is still an inseparable verb, so it can't get the "ge-" prefix of the past
> participle: "doorstaan": endured).
>
> I hope that by those examples I made clear that, at least in Dutch, calling
> separable verbs "not linguistically significant" is at best misguided.
> Besides native speaker's intuition, there's just too much happening in there
> to be able to analyse separable verbs simply as transparent
> "preposition+verb" structures (although I agree that they originated like
> that, or as "adverb+verb" or "noun+verb". They just don't behave that way
> anymore). You also need to take into account inseparable verbs, quite a few
> of them indistinguishable in structure from separable verbs, and many of
> them originating from the same "preposition/adverb/noun+verb"structures that
> also created separable verbs.
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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