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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)

From:

Kelvin Jackson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:53:31 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (52 lines)

>> [snip counterevidence]
>
> I'm not sure where I stand on intuition as evidence. It often misleads
> you. But as for the rest...
>
> Hm, I had forgotten that the "ge-" wasn't added.
>
> Can Dutch/German drop the object of a preposition as easily as English
> can? And if it can (or when it reluctantly does) do they automatically
> become separable prefix verbs or is there something in between?

The "prepositions" used with separable verbs often are unrelated to  
their traditional counterparts—e.g. ein- vs. in (both meaning in/ 
into). What do you mean by dropping the object of a preposition?
>
> On 20/04/09 14:46:36, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> I think it's clear that in e.g. "to give up" we have a single verb
>> that just happens to be split into two words (not just spellingwise,
>> but syntactically: you say "give it up", not *"give up it").  I think
>> calling "up" a preposition in that case is laughable. In "He gave up
>> the ghost", is "up the ghost" an adverbial prepositional phrase
>> describing where the giving took place?
>
> That's just an idiom. In "he kicked the bucket" is "the bucket" an
> object describing what was being kicked? Anyway, in my analysis, just
> because a preposition goes before a noun phrase doesn't mean the
> preposition governs that noun phrase. It can still be an intransitive
> preposition as long as the noun phrase can be in a relationship with
> something else (the object of the verb).
>
> The fact that there exists the sort of continuum you identify is
> precisely why I'm saying "up" in "he looked up the pipe", "he  
> looked up
> to the leaking roof", "he looked up" (direction), "he looked up the
> word", "he looked it up" are the same word. I just reckon the basic  
> use
> is the prepositional use and I always call it a preposition, even when
> it's patently not preposited. Trying to say that there's particles and
> prepositions and they're just two different categories misses a great
> deal of the relationship between them. Come up with an analysis that
> there's just particles and the particle use is basic and prepositions
> are derived from that, and you might convince me. But I don't think  
> the
> idea that there's two categories is really justified.
>
> The same analysis seems unsustainable for Dutch (and German) --- no  
> big
> deal, Dutch and German aren't English.
>
> --
> Tristan.

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