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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Null aspect

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:17:44 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

2009/4/21 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

> <snip many useful pointers>
>


> Trask notes that the 'perfect aspect' is somewhat anomalous among aspects
> (see also the so-called 'perfect progressive' below) and that its
> characterization is a matter of controversy; according to him, Bernard
> Comrie and Östen Dahl take different views on this (but he doesn't elaborate
> on this). If such authorities as Comrie & Dahl, both of whom have made
> detailed studies of verbal aspect, differ over the perfect aspect, then I
> think we shouldn't be surprised if it occasionally causes headaches for us
> lesser mortals   :)
>

I'm sort of glad to hear that even Comrie and Dahl have no hard and fast
answer about this. Makes me feel much better as a mere mortal. ;)
Indeed I think now that my formulation of a neutral aspect was unnecessary.
How this all spiralled out of control was, I think, looking at the parallel
constructions of the continuative and the stative forms in Japanese, getting
the idea of a parallel "state as both perfect and progressive" construction
and contriving to come up with that new progressive form, and then getting
mired in tenses when they're not supposed to be there...

Moral of the story: keep a clear head.

The Arithide verb is such: it primarily marks aspects, but there are affixes
that agglutinatively latch on to the verb stem to modify the moods and
voices - e.g. "sera" (write.PRFV) : "serōnai" (write.PRFV.SUBJ) : "serossai"
(write.PRFV.DESD) : "seraisa" (write.PRFV.CAUS) : "hezerai"
(write.PRFV.PASS). I have a "habitual" form too, e.g.

Emerēs pletēs serimna.
Every-day letter.ACC write.PRFV.HABT

Is there an ANADEW example for such a specific inflection?

I think I will keep the perfect aspect, because it is a rather key
differentiation in my mind and I would feel rather lost without it -- and
there are uses for it, too, such as:

Nās remor sera.
3psg.TOP book.sg.ACC write.PRFV
He writes/wrote/has/had written a book (in the narrative sense).

Nās remor seira/seiri*.
~     ~       write.IMPF
He is/was/has/had been writing a book.

Nās remor seroute/seira*.
~     ~       write.PERF
He is a published author (of one book so far).

*The two forms are not fixed, because the perfect arose later than the other
two (as might be expected) and I'm still vacillating between which stem
(perfective or imperfective) to derive it from. What reasoning might be more
likely: (1) derive from perfective stem, because the action that occasioned
the current state can be conceived of as being one unit, or (2) derive from
imperfective stem, because a "state" has duration much like an imperfective
verb? I don't ask for linguistic precision with this one, since speakers of
languages aren't all grammar experts.

"is writing" is dynamic, not stative. The 'progressive aspect' is one
> possible subcategory of the 'imperfective aspect'; other are, for example,
> 'habitual' and 'iterative'. Unless you are going to distinguish between
> different subcategories of imperfective, why complicate the issue by using
> both 'imperfective' and 'progressive'?
>

You are most right -- I have deleted the progressive, which was a result of
confused thinking as recounted above.


> While certainly "he is writing" is 'present progressive' and "he was
> writing" is 'past progressive', "he has been writing" is more problematic.
>
> You get what appears to be a progressive subdivision of the perfect, not
> the imperfective aspect! In English such forms are typically used to express
> what has been called the 'perfect of persistent situation', e.g. "Lisa has
> been working here all week." Some languages, e.g. French, Latin & Esperanto,
> use the _present tense_ for this. Some people refer to this as the 'perfect
> progressive aspect'   :)
>

More names! :( But AIUI "aspect" has to do with time flow, so why would the
time _positioning_ (which should be tense) here distinguish a different
aspect?


> In ancient Greek the future indicative, subjunctive etc. constitute a
> discrete _aspectual_ system, contrasting with the imperfective ('present
> stem'), perfective ('aorist stem') and perfect ('perfect stem') aspects,
> namely the prospective aspect.
>

Does that mean that the moods function as aspects in the future tense but
normally as moods elsewhere? That is rather fascinating... and horrifying to
know. I was intending to study Ancient Greek as a means of getting to really
know irregularities, but I hadn't expected that.


> If it had rained, I would have stayed. (pluperfect-past)
>> If it had rained, I would stay/be staying. (past-present)
>>
>
> The English 'past perfect (pluperfect' is being used here because these are
> not true conditions, they are hypotheses. We know darn well that it didn't
> rain! Many languages use subjunctive mood here. Another common practice is
> to move the the verb to a more remote past form - that's what's happened in
> English. The second verb, however, in both examples would be considered some
> sort of 'conditional'. The form "would have stayed" was called, when I was
> at school, by the rather peculiar name "future perfect in the past'; many
> would call it more simply "perfect conditional". Certainly the verb has
> modal implications.
> "I would stay" is similarly a present conditional form.
>

Oh dear, having no conditional form, this necessitates more logurgy
(logourgy?). Is there an ANADEW example (I like the grammatical reanalysis
of "ANADEW") of using the indicative with the subjunctive? I used to have a
conditional but it seems to have disappeared. Maybe I could explain it away
diachronically by saying that it merged with the indicative. ;)

Aspect can be confusing (and, as I wrote above, not all the 'experts' are
> agreed on everything), especially for people whose L1 (e.g. English, French)
> does not clearly distinguish between tense and aspect. Personally, I think
> if you are getting confused regarding aspect, it would be better not to try
> to distill something from three language - French, Chines, Japanese - whose
> verbal structures are so very different.
>
> Unless I really wanted to make life difficult for myself, I think, if I was
> uncertain about aspect, I would concentrate on the two superordinate
> aspects, imperfective ~ perfective, forget the trouble perfect aspect, and
> look more closely at languages that just make that two-fold distinction,
> e.g. the Slav languages & the Semitic languages.
>

I'm not too familiar with the literature for either of those two categories
-- what would be a recommended text for either? Thankee. (:


> I hope I've helped (but fear I may have added confusion   :(


Most definitely not -- it's made things much clearer than they were!

Although you also mentioned in a later mail that aspectually-differentiated
languages tend to differentiate between two futures -- are there exceptions,
especially where the future tense arose very late? In Arithide (or what I
have thus far), the future is undifferentiated aspectually, and the
"justification" is that the differentiation is
unknown/unknowable/immaterial. E.g. "Please meet me at 3pm at the café. I
will be waiting for you." vs. "Please meet me at 3pm at the café. I will
wait for you." are, English grammar aside, the same thing, at least
contextually.

The only examples I can think of so far where the distinction matters are
where two verbs occur: "I will be reading a book while I wait for you."

Thoughts? I'm not sure how, say, Russian or Hebrew treat this.

Eugene

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