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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The rhotic as a vowel

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:46:38 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (40 lines)

Generic response, not necessarlly to Philip Newton or Tristan:

--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Tristan McLeay wrote:
Ray Brown wrote:
> >> {Groan} the Czech words _do_ have vowels. They are
> written _r_. You
> >> can't have phonological words without vowels.
> >
> > So would you say these don't count as phonological
> words?
> >
> >    [KX_wtKts)x_w] 'you spat on me'
> >    [ts’ktsk_wts)ʼ] 'he arrived'
> >    [xKpʼX_wKtKpKKs] 'he had in his possession a
> bunchberry
> > plant'
> >    [sxs] 'seal blubber'

(I would bet that in at least some of those clusters there's a redundant schwa, possibly voiceless)
> 
> I think the point is not "those aren't
> phonological words" but "those
> words do contain vowels". In the sense that [S:] (when
> you want
> someone to be quiet) is a single vowel, I suppose.
> 
They are phonological words in whatever language this is. And like Czech, they may not contain "Vowels" as conventionally defined, but they do contain "syllabic nuclei".

In probably 99% of languages, vowels are the major class defined (in distinctive feature terms) as [-Cons, +Voc (or +Syllabic)] + articulatory features and _redundantly_ +voice and +continued (i.e. intrinsically, by definition, as they are defined in IPA IINM).  If a syllable, the basic unit of word structure, is then defined as "optional onset" + obligatory nucleus + "optional coda", it will depend on the individual language what can fulfill the role of "nucleus".  In 99% of langs. morpheme structure rules will require that nucleus be specified as [+voc ~+syl] i.e. a true vowel. But nothing prevents a given language from generalizing "nucleus" to include anything  with the feature [+continued]--even if [+cons] and regardless of voicing)-- which will allow fricatives, nasals, rhotics and laterals to fill the "nucleus" slot.  

English structure, like most languages, just happens to classify /r/ as a consonant, and our syllabic [r\] is best analyzed as a schwa+r (V+C) sequence, however convenient it may be to call it syllabic when discussing American Engl. How else will we account for non-rhotic Amer. dialects and UK etc. where "bird" is [b3:d], and all the other V+r's > V(:) -- obviously in the history of those lects the /r/ has been dropped/lost. (And generativists would claim that in at least some cases, it's still present in "underlying forms".)

I know nothing about our NW Coast native languages or the Caucasus, and little about Czech-- my guess would be that their various syllabic "consonants" result from historic loss of vowels. 

A litte OT: In some (old) articles about Prague, there would be mention of a good restaurant called "Tr^y Pstruc^y" (or some such) 'three ostriches'. "tr^y" is just good ol' IE, the other word is ult. from Latin _avis struthio_ (Span. avestruz) which I found a fascinating development......


      

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