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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 3

CONLANG April 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: The rhotic as a vowel

From:

Tristan McLeay <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:51:19 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

On 17/04/09 06:04:54, Roger Mills wrote:
> Tristan wrote:
...
> > Notice also that in SOV languages, where the head tends to
> > be at the 
> > end of a phrase, ***prepositions*** generally come at the end of
> > PPs and generally nouns come at the end of NPs, 
> 
> If I were a native Japanese speaker commenting on this thread, and 
> wrote, based on my L1, "postpositions generally come at the end of
> > PPs... whereas in English postpositions come at the beginning of
> PPs....." would you not be complaining "but they're NOT postpositions
> in English!!!" ?

No. I would understand your point and the precise word you use is 
neither here nor there because there's *no* scope for confusion in what 
you've said no matter what word you use. The most I would do is hope 
that in enough time the words "postposition" and "adposition" fall out 
of the language as unnecessary, and maybe, given the right context, 
point out that's what I'm trying for. (If you seemed to do it because 
you were annoyed by my apparent "linguicentrism", for instance, I would 
probably try to explain what I'm doing.) If I felt it were easier to do 
that with "postposition" or "adposition" I would, but "adposition" has 
been around long enough and just seems to have found a new more 
specific meaning than the one I want a word to have.

*Why* is it helpful to have a word for prepositions that come at the 
start of the phrase and prepositions that come at the end, if it's not 
similarly useful for nouns and adjectives and verbs?

...

>  And "intransitive
> > adposition" is exactly 
> > as silly as "intransitive preposition" so
> > "adposition" isn't any more 
> > helpful. 
> 
> Why not? If "adposition" is analogous to "affix", in that both are
> generic terms for things that can occur either before or after a word
> (rarely  both),

If a "preposition" or "adposition" is intransitive, then nothing comes 
before or after it, it just stands alone. It's not like an affix at 
all, because an affix *always* has to have something before it or 
*always* has to have something after it.

>then surely in a description of Language X you might
> write a section dealing with "Adpositions" with such statements as
>  "blah is a preposition, glak is a postposition" (having previously
> defined those terms of course) just as in "Affixes of English" we
> would say "un- in a prefix, -ment is a suffix." 
> 
> No one could get away with writing a paper on "The suffixes of
> English" and then discuss "the suffixes" un-, pre-, fore-, dis- etc.
> along with -ly, -ment, -tion, -hood etc. etc. as if they were the 
> same
> thing.

No-one's ever used "prefix" as if it means "affix" before. People use 
"preposition" in ways other than to mean "word that comes before/at the 
start of a phrase, with a specific function" all the time. The specific 
function is the crucial part of the word's meaning, and "coming at the 
start" is just windowdressing. (In "postposition" the referree word's 
location is more crucial to its meaning.)

If I'm wrong, then stranded prepositions (i.e. in clauses like "what 
I'm trying for") and intransitive prepositions (i.e. "he went straight 
up") aren't prepositions at all. Okay so maybe you can call the latter 
a specific class of adverbs or particles, but what do you call the 
former? why do the words suddenly change class because of syntactic 
changes? (Perhaps English has no prepositions? But then it's *you* 
who's changing the meaning of preposition, because English "for" has 
always been described as a preposition in English, and so a reasonable 
conclusion is that whatever "for" is, that's a preposition.)

> 
> and even if you find his argument unconvincing for
> > English, 
> > there's plenty of languages where a preposition can be
> > used on its own 
> > with "it" 
> 
> in that case it's just a plain old prep.phrase, with "it" as the
> object. In the Romance languages I know best, you can't have e.g.
> "sin/sans/senza" just standing alone; yes, they need an object.
> (Actually, it doesn't work in Engl. either-- *"John came without.
> *John comes from. *I did it with."

Indeed but I was talking about languages other than Germanic and 
Romance languages. Just like Spanish has inflected verbs, and you can 
drop the pronoun once you've done so, in languages like Irish with 
inflected prepositions, once you've inflected them, you don't need to 
specify the pronoun and you can drop it. 

> as the implied argument in much the
> > same way a verb can be 
> > used without an explicit subject in Spanish 
> 
> Wha? Spanish (Romance lgs. generally as I'm sure you know) verbs
> always have an explicitly marked subject-- sé, sabes, sabe etc. Only
> the reflexives are a little vague, meaning either 'one....' or else
> passive (aquí se habla español, qui si parla italiano).

Sorry you've misunderstood me. I meant, because you inflect the verb 
for the subject in Spanish, you can drop the explicit subject. I was 
thinking of the verb pointing to other words in the sentence: in (an 
indicative) English sentence, the verb always points towards a word 
that is the subject, so the verb is always used with a subject. In 
Spanish you can get the information about the subject from the verb, so 
the verb can be used without a subject.

So you can do the same thing --- inflect a preposition for person, and 
then skip the pronoun --- in some languages. The prepositions suddenly 
don't go before anything (or can have no relationship to whatever comes 
after).

--
Tristan.

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