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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Greek miscellanea

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:51:07 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

2009/4/24 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

> Edgard Bikelis wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> As for the Greek, IIRC the division of strong & weak verbs does go
>>> back to PIE. I believe something similar is found in Sanskrit. Can
>>> the PIEists on the list throw light on this?
>>>
>>
>> We usually say 'athematic' for strong verbs, and 'thematic' for the
>> weak ones, because if a root, that itself is athematic, receives an
>> thematic vowel (that changes between -e/o-, but it's not ablaut!),
>>
>
> Thematic & athematic forms occurred in ancient Greek as well, but it
> doesn't correspond to the weak ~ strong aorist forms. If one speaks of
> 'athematic' verbs, one means those anomalous verbs like _dídōmi_ (I
> give), _títhēmi_ (i put), _eimí_ (I am) etc where, in the imperfective
> forms, personal endings were added with no intervening thematic vowel.
>

The athematic verbs look like they've all undergone reduplication. Are they
all like this, or is it just the sample size?


>
>> In sanskrit the svarita, 'grave', was lower in pitch. When a short
>> vowel was acute, the next vocalic mora was grave, like 'tátà', and
>> the next mora after a grave was toneless.
>>
>
> Sidney Allen thinks that something similar happened in Greek. That, he
> claims, is why the acute cannot normally be maintained on the last vowel
> if another word follows: the is no next vocalic mora for the following
> grave! If the word that follows is an enclitic, the acute was maintained,
> because the word+enclitic form a single phonological word.
>

Ah, so the acute and grave always happened in pairs, and pitch phonological
changes ensured that finally-accented words took the grave, then?


> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Philip Newton wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> I did check my Triandafyllidis, though -- the abridged version that's
>> used in Greek schools. And it talks about present indicative,
>> present subjunctive, aorist subjunctive, etc.; for example it says
>> that the "continuous future" (εξακολουθητικός μέλλοντας) is formed
>> with the present subjunctive (υποτακτική του ενεστώτα) and the "point
>> future" (στιγμιαίος μέλλοντας) is formed with the aorist subjunctive
>> (υποτακτική του αορίστου). And the verb tables always show both present
>> indicative and present subjunctive separately.
>>
>
> Even though they're identical :)
>
> I suppose tradition is bound to exert its influence in a language with
> such a long history as Greek has!
>
> FWIW, it has this to say about the spelling difference: Παλαιότερα
>> ξεχώριζαν τις καταλήξεις της υποτακτικής (να έχης, να έχη, να έχωμε),
>> και αυτό συνεχίζεται και σήμερα ακόμη από μερικούς "In older times,
>> people distinguished the endings of the subjunctive, and this continues to
>> be the case even today for some/and even today there are
>> some who continue this practice". (In a footnote on the subjunctive forms
>> in the first paradigm covered, the verb έχω.)
>>
>
> I notice the different spellings for subjunctive - να έχης, να έχη, να
> έχωμε - are not given in their proper Katharevousa forms, i.e. there are
> no breathings on the initial vowels and the iota-subscripts have gone;
> so one does wonder why people still continue to make things awkward by
> maintaining in writing a distinction that long ago disappeared in the
> spoken language.
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Eugene Oh wrote:
> [snip]
>
> So, it seems that Triandafyllidis at least still distinguishes the present
>>> indicative from the present subjunctive even if both forms
>>> are identical. (And that what I learned as "the future form" is
>>> still called "aorist subjunctive".)
>>>
>>> "Aorist subjunctive"? But isn't the aorist, like Ray said, the past
>>> tense
>>>
>> of the perfective aspect? So they classify part of the aorist as past
>> and part as future and still call them by the same name...
>>
>
> No - this is part of the confusion surround this pesky word "aorist"
> (remember Trask gives four meanings for it!). When people speak of the
> "aorist tense" or the "aorist indicative" of either ancient or modern
> Greek, the mean the 'past perfective indicative.' But when they speak of
> the "aorist subjunctive" they mean the 'perfective subjunctive' -
> *nothing* to do with past time.
>
> In modern Greek we have two futures: imperfective = /Ta/ + imperfective
> ('present') subjunctive; perfective = /Ta/ _ perfective ('aorist')
> subjunctive. When it comes to the subjective - or the optative,
> imperative, participles & infinitives, forget the _temporal_ labels!


Ah, as usual, a very messy natlang paradigm. (: I get it now. What did the
word "aorist" first mean, anyhow? And how did it get to be so widely
(mis)used?

>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andrew Jarrette wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Then the subjunctive in some cases evolved into the
>> indicator of the future, so "perfective subjunctive" became
>> "perfective future".
>>
>
> No, no - the futures were at one time expressed by θέλω να /'Telo na/ +
> subjunctive (imperfective or perfective, according to meaning). i.e. I wish
> that ........
>
> Eventually θέλω να, θέλεις να, θέλει να etc contracted to θα which became a
> preverbal particle, used before the subjunctive, to indicate future tense.


How was the distinction between a wish and a future maintained then? I
remember distinctly the lines,

"Σίβυλλα τι θέλεις; respondebat illa, Ἁποθανείν θέλω"

Was this how -- namely by omitting the "να" from expressions of volition and
including it for the future? I'm not too sure about the development of Koine
Greek so I'm just hazarding a guess (since the above is clearly Ancient
Greek).

Eugene

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