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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Null aspect

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:33:16 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (280 lines)

Eugene Oh wrote:
> 2009/4/21 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> 
>> <snip many useful pointers>
>>
> 
> 
>> Trask notes that the 'perfect aspect' is somewhat anomalous among aspects
>> (see also the so-called 'perfect progressive' below) and that its
>> characterization is a matter of controversy; according to him, Bernard
>> Comrie and Östen Dahl take different views on this (but he doesn't elaborate
>> on this). If such authorities as Comrie & Dahl, both of whom have made
>> detailed studies of verbal aspect, differ over the perfect aspect, then I
>> think we shouldn't be surprised if it occasionally causes headaches for us
>> lesser mortals   :)
>>
> 
> I'm sort of glad to hear that even Comrie and Dahl have no hard and fast
> answer about this. Makes me feel much better as a mere mortal. ;)

And me also. However, I wish Trask had given some indication of what the 
different views were.

[snip]
> 
> Moral of the story: keep a clear head.

Yep - especially if you're looking at French, Chinese & Japanese with 
their very different verbal systems    :)

> The Arithide verb is such: it primarily marks aspects, but there are affixes
> that agglutinatively latch on to the verb stem to modify the moods and
> voices - e.g. "sera" (write.PRFV) : "serōnai" (write.PRFV.SUBJ) : "serossai"
> (write.PRFV.DESD) : "seraisa" (write.PRFV.CAUS) : "hezerai"
> (write.PRFV.PASS). I have a "habitual" form too, e.g.
> 
> Emerēs pletēs serimna.
> Every-day letter.ACC write.PRFV.HABT

The 'habitual aspect' is normally considered to be a subcategory of the 
_imperfective_.

The perfective aspect just views the event/situation in its entirety; it 
doesn't look inside the 'black box' to see its internal temporal works. 
The imperfective, however, does make reference to the internal temporal 
workings.

If we explicitly assert that an event/state is habitual, we are 
asserting that the event regularly takes place from time to time (in 
this at some time each day), i.e. we are looking inside the black box 
and noting the habitual nature of the event.

If, however, we have
Emerēs pletēs serimna.
Every-day letter.ACC write.*PERF.*HABT

Then that is a rather different. We have this this pesky _perfect 
aspect_. It is normally describes, as Thom Payne says, "a currently 
relevant state brought about by the the situation (normally an event) 
expressed by the verb" (_Describing Morphosyntax_). I guess it would be 
possible to have a form which indicates that a state is habitually 
brought about by the same situation, i.e. in this case a letter gets 
itself written regular every day - i.e. you are stressing both that an 
habitually relevant state results from a particular action everyday.

> Is there an ANADEW example for such a specific inflection?

I can't think of any language that uses an inflexion that specifically 
indicates habitual aspect, but I feel certain there must be examples.

> I think I will keep the perfect aspect, because it is a rather key
> differentiation in my mind and I would feel rather lost without it -- and
> there are uses for it, too, such as:
> 
> Nās remor sera.
> 3psg.TOP book.sg.ACC write.PRFV
> He writes/wrote/has/had written a book (in the narrative sense).
> 
> Nās remor seira/seiri*.
> ~     ~       write.IMPF
> He is/was/has/had been writing a book.
> 
> Nās remor seroute/seira*.
> ~     ~       write.PERF
> He is a published author (of one book so far).
> 
> *The two forms are not fixed, because the perfect arose later than the other
> two (as might be expected) and I'm still vacillating between which stem
> (perfective or imperfective) to derive it from. 
> What reasoning might be more
> likely: (1) derive from perfective stem, because the action that occasioned
> the current state can be conceived of as being one unit, or (2) derive from
> imperfective stem, because a "state" has duration much like an imperfective
> verb? I don't ask for linguistic precision with this one, since speakers of
> languages aren't all grammar experts.

Both are found in ancient Greek (natlangs are like that   :)

With the older set of verbs ('strong verbs') we find the perfective stem 
is the basic, and the other two are derived from it, e.g. the verb "to 
leave"
   perfective: lip-
imperfective: leip-
      perfect: leloip-
(The verb uses ablaut inherited from PIE to derive the different stem; 
the perfect stem was also marked with a form of initial reduplication)

The later set of verbs ('weak verbs') take the imperfective stem as the 
basic one, e.g. "to loosen"
imperfective: ly-
   perfective: lys-
      perfect: lelyk-

[snip]
>>
>> You get what appears to be a progressive subdivision of the perfect, not
>> the imperfective aspect! In English such forms are typically used to express
>> what has been called the 'perfect of persistent situation', e.g. "Lisa has
>> been working here all week." Some languages, e.g. French, Latin & Esperanto,
>> use the _present tense_ for this. Some people refer to this as the 'perfect
>> progressive aspect'   :)
>>
> 
> More names! :( But AIUI "aspect" has to do with time flow, so why would the
> time _positioning_ (which should be tense) here distinguish a different
> aspect?

Yet the _perfect aspect_ does make reference to time flow since it 
expresses a state (relevant either in the present, past or future) 
brought about by the situation expressed by the verb (i.e. by a time 
flow that preceded the relevant state).

The trouble with English expression like "Lisa has been working here all 
week" (and she's still working here) is that it does not express a 
relevant state brought about by Lisa's past working - it tells us that 
the finished state hasn't been reached yet. Lisa's not through working 
here; she still works here and has been all the week.

Some languages simply use a present tense and leave it to context to do 
the rest. English uses what is morphologically a 'perfect progressive' 
form, tho as the situation is still ongoing IMO it is not strictly 
_perfect_.

> 
>> In ancient Greek the future indicative, subjunctive etc. constitute a
>> discrete _aspectual_ system, contrasting with the imperfective ('present
>> stem'), perfective ('aorist stem') and perfect ('perfect stem') aspects,
>> namely the prospective aspect.
>>
> 
> Does that mean that the moods function as aspects in the future tense but
> normally as moods elsewhere? 

No. it means the moods function as moods    :)

What it means is that AG did not have a "future tense" in the proper 
sense of that term any more than English has. In English we express the 
notion of futurity by using modal auxiliaries such as 'will', 'shall'; 
in AG they developed a discrete aspect, the prospective aspect.

There were only two indicative tenses: past ~ non-past. The imperfective 
& perfect aspects have both tenses (I give the traditional tense names 
in parentheses):
non-past imperfective (present indic.)
past imperfective (imperfect indic.)
non-past perfect (perfect indic.)
past perfect (pluperfect indic.)

But the other two aspects had only one indicative tense:
non-past perfective - none
past perfective (aorist indic.)
non-past prospective (future indic.)
past prospective - none

(No 'future-in-the-past' nonsense for them   ;)

> That is rather fascinating... and horrifying to
> know. I was intending to study Ancient Greek as a means of getting to really
> know irregularities, but I hadn't expected that.

Don't worry, you won't find that - but you'll find irregularities 
a-plenty. Be prepared for a bumpy ride    ;)

[snip]
> 
> Oh dear, having no conditional form, this necessitates more logurgy
> (logourgy?). Is there an ANADEW example (I like the grammatical reanalysis
> of "ANADEW") of using the indicative with the subjunctive? 

If you mean, indicative in one part of the conditional sentence & 
subjunctive the other, the answer is "yes".

> I used to have a
> conditional but it seems to have disappeared. 

Don't worry - plenty of natlangs don't have specific conditional forms. 
Latin should hypothetical conditions by using the subjunctive. AG simply 
used the indicative for present & past hypothetic conditions, shoving 
the tense a 'further back in time' form, to show 'remoteness' and using 
a particle _an_ (or _ke_ according to dialect) for good measure   ;)

[snip]
>>
>> Unless I really wanted to make life difficult for myself, I think, if I was
>> uncertain about aspect, I would concentrate on the two superordinate
>> aspects, imperfective ~ perfective, forget the trouble perfect aspect, and
>> look more closely at languages that just make that two-fold distinction,
>> e.g. the Slav languages & the Semitic languages.
>>
> 
> I'm not too familiar with the literature for either of those two categories
> -- what would be a recommended text for either? Thankee. (:

Not sure off hand. I'll think on it.
> 
>> I hope I've helped (but fear I may have added confusion   :(
>  
> Most definitely not -- it's made things much clearer than they were!
> 
> Although you also mentioned in a later mail that aspectually-differentiated
> languages tend to differentiate between two futures -- are there exceptions,
> especially where the future tense arose very late? 

Ancient Greek - it simply created a separate aspect   ;)

But I was referring specifically to languages that make the two-way 
imperfective ~ perfective aspect distinction throughout their verbal 
systems, like the Slave languages or, indeed, modern Greek. Yes, they 
consistently have two futures. In the case of modern Greek, its futures 
have nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient future forms; they are 
much later developments.

In Arithide (or what I
> have thus far), the future is undifferentiated aspectually, and the
> "justification" is that the differentiation is
> unknown/unknowable/immaterial. E.g. "Please meet me at 3pm at the café. I
> will be waiting for you." vs. "Please meet me at 3pm at the café. I will
> wait for you." are, English grammar aside, the same thing, at least
> contextually.

More or less - the former, however, makes it clear that your waiting 
will still be in progress at 3pm, i.e. if I get held up and don't arrive 
until 3.05 pm I can still expect to find you; with the 2nd one I would 
not be so certain   ;)

In any case, the English is not a distinction between imperfective & 
perfective but between a progressive form and a form _unmarked- as 
regards aspect. "I will wait" could be imperfective or perfective 
according to context - just as, indeed, the simple past can be, e.g.
She sang well yesterday - past perfective
She sang in the Church choir when she was young - 'sang' is more like to 
past imperfective, meaning that this is something she habitually did at 
that time.

> The only examples I can think of so far where the distinction matters are
> where two verbs occur: "I will be reading a book while I wait for you."

That merely states that the process of reading will be coterminous with 
the waiting. Interestingly, Latin always used the present indicative in 
"while" clauses, the idea being that the event, action etc. is present 
relative to the main action. Oh dear, now were getting into the realms 
of 'relative tense': "[a] tense form whose temporal point of reference 
is determined by its syntactic relation to another tense form" [Trask].

> Thoughts? I'm not sure how, say, Russian or Hebrew treat this.

'will be reading' - imperfective. As for the other verb, it depends how 
the language handles 'while' clauses, but some imperfective form.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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