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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Greek miscellanea (was: Null aspect)

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:19:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

2009/4/23 Edgard Bikelis <[log in to unmask]>

>
> We usually say 'athematic' for strong verbs, and 'thematic' for the weak
> ones, because if a root, that itself is athematic, receives an thematic
> vowel (that changes between -e/o-, but it's not ablaut!), it no longer
> loses
> its accent to the desinences. Probably PIE had just athematic verbs, as no
> thematic verb can be directly traced to it, except one... IRC, *weg'h-o:
> lat
> veho:, that is found in sanskrit and tocharian too.
>

In that case wouldn't thematic verbs have more likely disappeared than
become prevalent? This is interesting - are there publicly accessible
materials one can view on this subject?


> A weird problem is that, in athematic verbs, the subjunctive is made with
> the very same thematic vowel, and if the stem is already thematic, it's
> added twice, making the thematic vowel long. Many try to derive those
> thematic presents from athematic subjunctives, but the semantical leep
> seems
> really unlikely.
>

I didn't quite get what you meant by "deriving thematic presents from
athematic subjunctives".


> In sanskrit the svarita, 'grave', was lower in pitch. When a short vowel
> was
> acute, the next vocalic mora was grave, like 'tátà', and the next mora
> after
> a grave was toneless. There are cases where the acute vowel became a
> semivowel, then just the 'independent svarita' survived, like 'svàr' for
> 'súar'. So we know more or less how it sounded... but the greek grave is
> really another thing.
>

Does the svarita only ever follow a high pitch?

Στις 23 Απρίλιος 2009 7:39 μμ, ο χρήστης Philip Newton <
[log in to unmask]> έγραψε:

> 2009/4/23 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>:
> > The so-called present indicative & present subjunctive are, in fact,
> identical both in pronunciation and in spelling (In the days when
> Katharevousa was used, there were differences of spelling in 2nd & 3rd
> singular and the 1st plural). There is a single form and distinguishing the
> two uses as indicative & subjunctive is a hang-over from the Classical past.
> Philip Newton is more clued up on Modern Greek practice than I am; it may be
> the moderns have now dropped this archaic terminology.
>
> Well, when I spoke to Greeks it was rarely about grammar :)
>
> I did check my Triandafyllidis, though -- the abridged version that's
> used in Greek schools. And it talks about present indicative, present
> subjunctive, aorist subjunctive, etc.; for example it says that the
> "continuous future" (εξακολουθητικός μέλλοντας) is formed with the
> present subjunctive (υποτακτική του ενεστώτα) and the "point future"
> (στιγμιαίος μέλλοντας) is formed with the aorist subjunctive
> (υποτακτική του αορίστου). And the verb tables always show both
> present indicative and present subjunctive separately.
>

Are there verbs where the present indicative and present subjunctive are
different? That may be why the distinction persists - French present
subjunctives for -er verbs are identical to the indicative, but they're
still shown separately in grammar tables because there are verbs for which
they differ. (:

>
> FWIW, it has this to say about the spelling difference: Παλαιότερα
> ξεχώριζαν τις καταλήξεις της υποτακτικής (να έχης, να έχη, να έχωμε),
> και αυτό συνεχίζεται και σήμερα ακόμη από μερικούς "In older times,
> people distinguished the endings of the subjunctive, and this
> continues to be the case even today for some/and even today there are
> some who continue this practice". (In a footnote on the subjunctive
> forms in the first paradigm covered, the verb έχω.)
>
> So, it seems that Triandafyllidis at least still distinguishes the
> present indicative from the present subjunctive even if both forms are
> identical. (And that what I learned as "the future form" is still
> called "aorist subjunctive".)
>
> "Aorist subjunctive"? But isn't the aorist, like Ray said, the past tense
of the perfective aspect? So they classify part of the aorist as past and
part as future and still call them by the same name...

Eugene

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