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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)

From:

Andrew Jarrette <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:53:09 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

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text/plain (221 lines)

Forwarded Message: Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:50 PM
From:
"Andrew Jarrette" <[log in to unmask]>
To:
[log in to unmask]
Forwarded Message: Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:39 PM
From:
"Andrew Jarrette" <[log in to unmask]>
To:
[log in to unmask]

Forwarded Message: Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)
Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:33 AM
From:
"Andrew Jarrette" <[log in to unmask]>
To:
"Constructed Languages List" <[log in to unmask]>
--- In [log in to unmask], "Mark J. Reed" <markjreed@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Tristan McLeay <conlang@...> wrote:
> >> Neither does the grammar allow "Up I gave alcohol for Lent." Â If
> >> "up" is a separate particle with an adverbial function, it should be
> >> mobile. Â "Up the pipe I looked" is perfectly valid, if perhaps overly
> >> poetic; "Up in the dictionary the word I looked" is not.
> >
> > Not comparable. "Up in the sky I looked" is the correct comparison and
> > it fails (it means something different from "I looked up in the sky").
>
> Not IML. "Up in the sky I looked" and "I looked up in the sky" mean
> the same thing; they differ only in emphasis or poeticity.
>
> > "In I walked to the room"
>
> Well, for one thing, "I walked in to the room" is not legal IML. It
> must be "I walked into the room", with "into" as a single word. But
> even if you split it, you get two of those thingamabobs you insist are
> still prepositions, and they have to move together. "In to the room I
> walk", "Up to the top I walked".
>
> > In any case, "the bucket he kicked" doesn't work (topicalisation,
> > common in speech rare in writing, not a relative clause); idioms are
> > obviously in some way special.
>
> I'd understand "the bucket he kicked", but that's a change in the
> fundamental order of the sentence from SVO to OSV. Moving a
> prepositional phrase is much more minor. When you can't do it, it's
> not a prepositional phrase, and the noun in question is not a
> preposition.
>
> > Syntactically tho. "Give" is the verb; it's the bit that acts verblike.
> > If a verb can do something, it gets done to the "give" part, never the
> > "up" part. What's the "up" part?
>
> > There have been plenty in this thread. "Look up" (direction), "go in"
> > are two.
>
> But those examples are so short that it's hard to see what you mean by
> "behaving identically".
>
> > You were implicitly acknowledging the existence of these when you
> > talked about implicit objects, which is a notion I let pass even though
> > I'm not too fond of it.
>
> Language, and therefore linguistic, analysis is full of implicit
> arguments. It's the difference between "foo bar blecch" standing on
> its own vs implying "foo bar blecch X" for some unstated X. e.g.
> "Look out!" has no implied anything. "Look inside." does; there has
> to be something inside of which you're looking...
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
>


I've been following all the discussion on this topic. I seldom post because
I'm not usually very qualified to submit ideas on the topics in this forum
(I did try to submit an answer to the "does anyone know why actors imitate
foreign accents better these days" question, but it was bumped (I'll send it
next). Also this message was originally bumped until I settled my posting
issues). But on this topic, of adpositions, prepositions, adverbs, etc. I
feel I am qualified to say something.

For the question of whether words like "up" in "to look up" in all its
meanings, or "in" in "give in" as well as "walk in", are prepositions or
adverbs or particles or whatever, I think everyone should take a look at the
origins of such words in English.

First of all, "up" and "u:t" (the ancestor of "out") were NEVER used as
prepositions in Old English. They served to indicate the direction of verbs
of motion (i.e. like "upwards" and "outwards"). "up" only acquired
prepositional function later in the history of English (and its
prepositional function, as in "we went up the hill", is limited compared to
most English prepositions), and at one time it was marginal, much like "out"
currently is in such expressions as "he ran out the house" which can occur
in AAVE.

In fact, when you look far enough back, NONE of the words in English we call
"prepositions" today started out as prepositions. Most of them started out
like "up" and "u:t"(out), i.e. as indicators of direction of movement. By
"far enough back" I mean before Homeric Greek, as for example in Vedic
Sanskrit, the oldest well-documented Indo-European language (English is
Indo-European also). For example, a word like "in" (and "to" and "from"),
or the words that are used with that meaning in other languages or at other
periods, started out as a word that served to indicate a direction of motion
("inwards"). Such words (like "in" and most modern prepositions) were
originally closely associated with verbs, because they defined or localized
the action, which of course was indicated by the verb. They could occur
before the verb, after the verb, or basically anywhere in the sentence.
Thus "He went in" could have been said as "He in went" or "In he went" or
"In went he" or "Went i!
n he" or "Went he in". But in Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek, there was a
definite tendency to put them before the verb, i.e. to say "He in went".
They then came to be felt as a form of prefix of the verb, like "He inwent".
 Then further words or phrases could be added to further localize the
action. "He inwent" could become "He inwent the house", with "the house"
inflected in some case that indicates that the house was the endpoint of the
action (in these languages, normally the accusative case). Compare English
"He entered the house", where "en-" goes back to Indo-European *eni
"inwards", also the source of English "in", and "-tered" was originally a
verb indicating motion across a barrier or threshold (but which could also
be translated "went" in this case). Anyway, it must be remembered that the
"in" (or *eni) part was free to move anywhere in the sentence, so "He inwent
the house" (originally "He in went the house") in some areas of the
Indo-European world was preferentially expressed as "He went in the house".
 But at this early time it was better understood as "He went in, the house"
because "in" was not held to govern "the house" (Or think of it as "He went
inwards the house". "Inwards" certainly doesn't govern "the house". "The
house" was in a case form that indicated endpoint of motion, whether the
directional word "inwards" was there or not). But over time people began to
think of it more as governing "the house" rather than simply indicating
direction of movement. That's when it (and many of the others, equivalent
to "from", "to", "under", "over", "at" etc.) became reinterpreted as what we
now call a preposition. From there words like "in" and some of the others
evolved use to indicate position at rest as well, not just direction or
endpoint of motion (note that both position at rest and secondarily endpoint
of motion were indicated in Sanskrit, and presumably Proto-Indo-European, by
the locative case).

This explanation simplifies things, but that's fundamentally what happened.
 Compare this description of Vedic Sanskrit, from William Dwight Whitney's
"Sanskrit Grammar", 1889:

"All the forms, personal and other, of verbal conjugation -- of both primary
and secondary conjugation, and even to some extent of denominative (so far
as the denominative stems have become assimilated in value to simple roots)
-- occur very frequently in combination with certain words of direction,
elements of an adverbial character..., the so-called prepositions (according
to the original use of that term), or the verbal prefixes.

...In classical Sanskrit, the prefix stands immediately before the verbal
form. In the earlier language, however (especially in the Veda, in the
Bra:hman.a less often and more restrictedly), its position is quite free: it
may be separated from the verb by another word or words, and may even come
after the form to which it belongs; it may also stand alone, qualifying a
verb that is understood, or conjointly with another prefix, one that is
expressed.

...A prefix, however, not seldom has a more independent value, as a general
adverb of direction, or as a preposition (in the usual modern sense of that
term), belonging to and governing a noun; in such case, it is not drawn in
to form part of a verbal compound, but has its own accent. The two kinds of
use shade into one another, and are not divisible by any distinct and fixed
line."

"Those verbal prefixes which have value as such throughout the whole history
of the language are given below, in alphabetic order, with their fundamental
meanings:

<áti> across, beyond, past, over, to excess;
<ádhi> above, over, on, on to;
<ánu> after, along, toward;
<antár> between, among, within;
<ápa> away, forth, off;
<ápi> unto, close upon or on;
<abhí> to, unto, against (often with implied violence);
<áva> down, off;
<á:> to, unto, at;
<úd> up, up forth or out;
<úpa> to, unto, toward;
<ní> down; in; into;
<nís> out, forth;
<pára:> to a distance, away, forth;
<pári> round about, around;
<prá> forward, onward, forth, fore;
<práti> in reversed direction, back to or against, against, in return;
<ví> apart, asunder, away, out;
<sám> along, with, together."

Some of the above are cognates to modern English prepositions/prepositional
adverbs (? if they can be called this):
<ápa> is cognate with <off>.
<úd> is cognate with <out>.
<pára:> and <prá> are cognate with <(be)fore> and <from> (and ultimately
<for> and <for-> the prefix, but these two have meanings evolved from the
original meaning which is close to or the same as the Sanskrit meanings
above). Cf. also the "verbal prefix" <purás> "in front, forward", which is
one of several "prefixes essentially akin with the above, but more
distinctly adverbial, and of more restricted use..."

Others have cognates in other languages, but also Sanskrit lost some "verbal
prefixes" that other languages retained, many of which evolved into
prepositions as well in these other Indo-European languages.


Does the above help in any way with the controversy over this much-debated
topic? I write as though I know all this with supreme authority, I know: it
is merely what I have deduced or what I have actually read from many books
about the history of the Indo-European languages (or books about particular
Indo-European languages, such as Old English). I firmly believe in what I
have written above, though it may not be totally accurate as to what
actually happened in the evolution of PIE directional/locational
adverbs/preverbs to modern IE languages' prepositions.

Andrew

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July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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