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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Null aspect

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:45:49 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

2009/4/23 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

> Eugene Oh wrote:
>
>>
>> The later set of verbs ('weak verbs') take the imperfective stem as the
>>> basic one, e.g. "to loosen"
>>> imperfective: ly-
>>> perfective: lys-
>>> perfect: lelyk-
>>>
>>>
>> "Later", as in literally they arose later?
>>
>
> Yes - a bit like the weak verbs in the Germanic languages. It's a drive
> toward bringing in some sort of regularity. With the weak verbs the aorist
> was derived by suffixing -s(a)- to the imperfective stem, tho the /s/ could
> sometimes get 'disguised' by late phonetic development. These weak aorists
> also had a distinctive set of personal endings, all of which, except the 3rd
> sing., contained the vowel /a/.
>
> The strong aorists (past perfective0, on the other hand, had exactly the
> same personal endings as the "imperfect tense" (past imperfective).
>

Does that mean that these verbs were once strong but then in the drive for
regularity their conjugation changed? I wonder if Germanic weak verbs were
thus derived too.


> Does anyone have any comments on his suggestion of "retrospective" as a
>> replacement for "perfect"? He is on this list IIRC so he probably could
>> respond. (: My personal reservation is that it is too redolent of "past
>> tense".
>>
>
> I think it really would be helpful if 'perfect' could be dropped as an
> aspectual label and that, like "imperfect" it was used only as a label for a
> 'tense' (i.e. a tense-aspect) in particular languages. But I don't
> particularly like 'retrospective'; while that reflects on the past
> events/action that led to the current situation, it seems to me that the
> main thrust of the aspect is the resulting _current situation_. But, i must
> confess, I can't think of an obvious alternative.
>

Maybe "current". Or "currentive". ;) All the suitable words have already
been appropriated for some purpose or other, that's why it's so difficult to
find a good name for it.


> There were only two indicative tenses: past ~ non-past. The imperfective &
>>> perfect aspects have both tenses (I give the traditional tense names in
>>> parentheses):
>>> non-past imperfective (present indic.)
>>> past imperfective (imperfect indic.)
>>> non-past perfect (perfect indic.)
>>> past perfect (pluperfect indic.)
>>>
>>> But the other two aspects had only one indicative tense:
>>> non-past perfective - none
>>> past perfective (aorist indic.)
>>> non-past prospective (future indic.)
>>> past prospective - none
>>>
>>>
>> They didn't have a non-past perfective?
>>
>
> No, not in the indicative mood.
>

But what would "grapsō" be classified as? IIRC the quartet "graphō, grapsō,
-grapha, -grapsa" survived into M. Gr. (where I learnt it, a few weeks ago).


> Which reminds me, M. Greek uses the
>> non-past perfective as a participle of sorts to form the future too...
>>
>
> No. The future in modern Greek is formed by using the particle /Ta/
> followed by a subjective, either the imperfective ('present subjective'
> which in the modern language is identical with the indicative - tho spelled
> different in the old Katharevousa variety!) or the perfective ('aorist
> subjective').
>
> In both the ancient & modern language _tense_ differences, in the strict
> sense of the word, are found only in the indicative mood. The other moods -
> subjunctive, imperative and (in the ancient language) optative - and the
> non-finite parts, i.e. the participles & infinitives (almost entirely absent
> in the modern language) do not exhibit tense, only aspect.
> .
>


> Incidentally, I found this PDF on the negative imperative in An. Greek --
>>
>> there was a word, "υΐος" (that's ypsilon-iota-omicron-sigma). How is that
>> read? [y'ios]?
>>
>
> It's written υἱός
>
> In the ancient language the word accent was one of pitch, not stress. Also
> the initial /h/ was still pronounced in most (tho not all) dialects in those
> far off days :)
>
> The ancient Athenian pronunciation would have been (something like)
> [hyjjo_Rs] (i.e. there was a rise of pitch on the [o] diphthong. In the
> modern language, it is simply /jos/ :)
>
>
Ah, thank you. I presume "rising" means like the Chinese rising tone. AG
intonation fascinates me, especially when I read, say, Aristotle and imagine
him speaking with florid prosody. The circumflex is low-high-low (rise-fall)
and the grave is slightly lower than high, IIRC. (Please correct me if I'm
wrong!)

Eugene

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