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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: adposition (was: The rhotic as a vowel)

From:

Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:16:13 +1000

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (247 lines) Parts/Attachments

multipart/alternative (247 lines) , multipart/alternative (247 lines) , text/plain (6 lines)


-----Original Message-----

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 at 21:53:09 -0400, Andrew Jarrette wrote:

[YA - previous quotes snipped]

> I've been following all the discussion on this topic. I seldom post
because
> I'm not usually very qualified to submit ideas on the topics in this forum
> (I did try to submit an answer to the "does anyone know why actors imitate
> foreign accents better these days" question, but it was bumped (I'll send
it
> next). Also this message was originally bumped until I settled my posting
> issues). But on this topic, of adpositions, prepositions, adverbs, etc. I
> feel I am qualified to say something.
>
> For the question of whether words like "up" in "to look up" in all its
> meanings, or "in" in "give in" as well as "walk in", are prepositions or
> adverbs or particles or whatever, I think everyone should take a look at
the
> origins of such words in English.
>
> First of all, "up" and "u:t" (the ancestor of "out") were NEVER used as
> prepositions in Old English. They served to indicate the direction of
verbs
> of motion (i.e. like "upwards" and "outwards"). "up" only acquired
> prepositional function later in the history of English (and its
> prepositional function, as in "we went up the hill", is limited compared
to
> most English prepositions), and at one time it was marginal, much like
"out"
> currently is in such expressions as "he ran out the house" which can occur
> in AAVE.
>
> In fact, when you look far enough back, NONE of the words in English we
call
> "prepositions" today started out as prepositions. Most of them started
out
> like "up" and "u:t"(out), i.e. as indicators of direction of movement. By
> "far enough back" I mean before Homeric Greek, as for example in Vedic
> Sanskrit, the oldest well-documented Indo-European language (English is
> Indo-European also). For example, a word like "in" (and "to" and "from"),
> or the words that are used with that meaning in other languages or at
other
> periods, started out as a word that served to indicate a direction of
motion
> ("inwards"). Such words (like "in" and most modern prepositions) were
> originally closely associated with verbs, because they defined or
localized
> the action, which of course was indicated by the verb. They could occur
> before the verb, after the verb, or basically anywhere in the sentence.
> Thus "He went in" could have been said as "He in went" or "In he went" or
> "In went he" or "Went i!
> n he" or "Went he in". But in Vedic Sanskrit and Homeric Greek, there was
a
> definite tendency to put them before the verb, i.e. to say "He in went".
> They then came to be felt as a form of prefix of the verb, like "He
inwent".
> Then further words or phrases could be added to further localize the
> action. "He inwent" could become "He inwent the house", with "the house"
> inflected in some case that indicates that the house was the endpoint of
the
> action (in these languages, normally the accusative case). Compare
English
> "He entered the house", where "en-" goes back to Indo-European *eni
> "inwards", also the source of English "in", and "-tered" was originally a
> verb indicating motion across a barrier or threshold (but which could also
> be translated "went" in this case). Anyway, it must be remembered that
the
> "in" (or *eni) part was free to move anywhere in the sentence, so "He
inwent
> the house" (originally "He in went the house") in some areas of the
> Indo-European world was preferentially expressed as "He went in the
house".
> But at this early time it was better understood as "He went in, the
house"
> because "in" was not held to govern "the house" (Or think of it as "He
went
> inwards the house". "Inwards" certainly doesn't govern "the house". "The
> house" was in a case form that indicated endpoint of motion, whether the
> directional word "inwards" was there or not). But over time people began
to
> think of it more as governing "the house" rather than simply indicating
> direction of movement. That's when it (and many of the others, equivalent
> to "from", "to", "under", "over", "at" etc.) became reinterpreted as what
we
> now call a preposition. From there words like "in" and some of the others
> evolved use to indicate position at rest as well, not just direction or
> endpoint of motion (note that both position at rest and secondarily
endpoint
> of motion were indicated in Sanskrit, and presumably Proto-Indo-European,
by
> the locative case).
>
> This explanation simplifies things, but that's fundamentally what
happened.
> Compare this description of Vedic Sanskrit, from William Dwight Whitney's
> "Sanskrit Grammar", 1889:
>
> "All the forms, personal and other, of verbal conjugation -- of both
primary
> and secondary conjugation, and even to some extent of denominative (so far
> as the denominative stems have become assimilated in value to simple
roots)
> -- occur very frequently in combination with certain words of direction,
> elements of an adverbial character..., the so-called prepositions
(according
> to the original use of that term), or the verbal prefixes.
>
> ...In classical Sanskrit, the prefix stands immediately before the verbal
> form. In the earlier language, however (especially in the Veda, in the
> Bra:hman.a less often and more restrictedly), its position is quite free:
it
> may be separated from the verb by another word or words, and may even come
> after the form to which it belongs; it may also stand alone, qualifying a
> verb that is understood, or conjointly with another prefix, one that is
> expressed.
>
> ...A prefix, however, not seldom has a more independent value, as a
general
> adverb of direction, or as a preposition (in the usual modern sense of
that
> term), belonging to and governing a noun; in such case, it is not drawn in
> to form part of a verbal compound, but has its own accent. The two kinds
of
> use shade into one another, and are not divisible by any distinct and
fixed
> line."
>
> "Those verbal prefixes which have value as such throughout the whole
history
> of the language are given below, in alphabetic order, with their
fundamental
> meanings:
>
> <áti> across, beyond, past, over, to excess;
> <ádhi> above, over, on, on to;
> <ánu> after, along, toward;
> <antár> between, among, within;
> <ápa> away, forth, off;
> <ápi> unto, close upon or on;
> <abhí> to, unto, against (often with implied violence);
> <áva> down, off;
> <á:> to, unto, at;
> <úd> up, up forth or out;
> <úpa> to, unto, toward;
> <ní> down; in; into;
> <nís> out, forth;
> <pára:> to a distance, away, forth;
> <pári> round about, around;
> <prá> forward, onward, forth, fore;
> <práti> in reversed direction, back to or against, against, in return;
> <ví> apart, asunder, away, out;
> <sám> along, with, together."
>
> Some of the above are cognates to modern English
prepositions/prepositional
> adverbs (? if they can be called this):
> <ápa> is cognate with <off>.
> <úd> is cognate with <out>.
> <pára:> and <prá> are cognate with <(be)fore> and <from> (and ultimately
> <for> and <for-> the prefix, but these two have meanings evolved from the
> original meaning which is close to or the same as the Sanskrit meanings
> above). Cf. also the "verbal prefix" <purás> "in front, forward", which is
> one of several "prefixes essentially akin with the above, but more
> distinctly adverbial, and of more restricted use..."
>
> Others have cognates in other languages, but also Sanskrit lost some
"verbal
> prefixes" that other languages retained, many of which evolved into
> prepositions as well in these other Indo-European languages.
>
>
> Does the above help in any way with the controversy over this much-debated
> topic? I write as though I know all this with supreme authority, I know:
it
> is merely what I have deduced or what I have actually read from many books
> about the history of the Indo-European languages (or books about
particular
> Indo-European languages, such as Old English). I firmly believe in what I
> have written above, though it may not be totally accurate as to what
> actually happened in the evolution of PIE directional/locational
> adverbs/preverbs to modern IE languages' prepositions.


And later:

> Just found this passage in Robert S.P. Beekes' "Comparative Indo-European
> Linguistics: An Introduction":
>
> "The prepositions and preverbs of the later [Indo-European] languages were
> adverbs in PIE [Proto-Indo-European]; PIE had no prepositions or
preverbs."
>
> That help the discussion?


Andrew, you've certainly helped me understand something
about the evolution of our modern prepositions, that I'd never
even suspected. Interesting that they all arose in connection
with verbs of motion, rather than of state or place. That brings
to mind a dynamic, even nomadic, culture, whose "normal"
state of being is one of motion, not of situation.

I guess that relative to their PIE and ancient IE ancestors,
the cultures of Europe and India are much more sedentary
today. The ancestral societies must have been quite similar
to the nomadic cattle-herding cultures of today's Africa -
more particularly so where, as in Vedic India, raising cattle
was of major economic importance.

So I'm now minded to take a couple of specfic actions:

1. Find out how the natlangs of today's nomads (herding
or otherwise, eg African and Australian natlangs) deal with
situation and motion i.e. what parts of speech express ideas
of location or movement (now or diachronically), and their
relative preponderance.

2. Think about how a sessile (agricultural or post-industrial)
conculture might use ideas of situation and motion, and how
much of each relative to the other. I have one fairly sessile
gatherer conculture with a partly developed conlang that I
feel could profitably use these ideas in further word formation.

Thanks for helping me clarify my thinking on these topics.

Regards,
Yahya
  _____

Yahya Abdal-Aziz

Convener, Graphics SIG <http://groups.melbpc.org.au/~graphics/>
Convener, Music SIG <http://groups.melbpc.org.au/~music/>
Melbourne PC User Group <http://melbpc.org.au/> (MelbPC)

Share my music, paintings, equation art, and thoughts on books, online at
eSnips:
http://www.eSnips.com/user/Yahya <http://www.esnips.com/user/Yahya>

Enjoy learning about Uiama, a conlang (constructed language) at:
http://conlang.pbwiki.com/Uiama <http://conlang.pbwiki.com/Uiama>
  _____



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July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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