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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Greek miscellanea (was: Null aspect)

From:

Edgard Bikelis <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:49:04 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (217 lines)

On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Eugene Oh wrote:
>
>> 2009/4/23 R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>>  Eugene Oh wrote:
>>>
>> [snip]
>
>> "Later", as in literally they arose later?
>>>>
>>>>  Yes - a bit like the weak verbs in the Germanic languages. It's a drive
>>> toward bringing in some sort of regularity. With the weak verbs the
>>> aorist
>>> was derived by suffixing -s(a)- to the imperfective stem, tho the /s/
>>> could
>>> sometimes get 'disguised' by late phonetic development. These weak
>>> aorists
>>> also had a distinctive set of personal endings, all of which, except the
>>> 3rd
>>> sing., contained the vowel /a/.
>>>
>>
> [snip]
>
>  Does that mean that these verbs were once strong but then in the drive for
>> regularity their conjugation changed? I wonder if Germanic weak verbs were
>> thus derived too.
>>
>
> There are people on this list who are far more informed regarding
> Proto-Germanic than I am, so I think I'll leave it to them to comment.
>
> As for the Greek, IIRC the division of strong & weak verbs does go back to
> PIE. I believe something similar is found in Sanskrit. Can the PIEists on
> the list throw light on this?


We usually say 'athematic' for strong verbs, and 'thematic' for the weak
ones, because if a root, that itself is athematic, receives an thematic
vowel (that changes between -e/o-, but it's not ablaut!), it no longer loses
its accent to the desinences. Probably PIE had just athematic verbs, as no
thematic verb can be directly traced to it, except one... IRC, *weg'h-o: lat
veho:, that is found in sanskrit and tocharian too.

A weird problem is that, in athematic verbs, the subjunctive is made with
the very same thematic vowel, and if the stem is already thematic, it's
added twice, making the thematic vowel long. Many try to derive those
thematic presents from athematic subjunctives, but the semantical leep seems
really unlikely.

>
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>>>>  I think it really would be helpful if 'perfect' could be dropped as an
>>> aspectual label and that, like "imperfect" it was used only as a label
>>> for a
>>> 'tense' (i.e. a tense-aspect) in particular languages. But I don't
>>> particularly like 'retrospective'; while that reflects on the past
>>> events/action that led to the current situation, it seems to me that the
>>> main thrust of the aspect is the resulting _current situation_. But, i
>>> must
>>> confess, I can't think of an obvious alternative.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe "current". Or "currentive". ;) All the suitable words have already
>> been appropriated for some purpose or other, that's why it's so difficult
>> to
>> find a good name for it.
>>
>
> Yes, I'm afraid we're stuck with perfective & perfect, with all the
> attendant confusion that this generates    :(
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>>>
>> But what would "grapsō" be classified as? IIRC the quartet "graphō,
>> grapsō,
>> -grapha, -grapsa" survived into M. Gr. (where I learnt it, a few weeks
>> ago).
>>
>
> _grapsō_ is aorist (i.e. perfective) subjunctive. However, _graphō_ may be
> either present indicative (i.e. present imperfective indicative) _or_
> 'present subjunctive' (i.e. imperfective subjunctive); when it is used as a
> main verb with no preverbal particle such as /Ta/it is indicative, but when
> used in various constructions where _grapsō_ could be used, it is
> subjunctive.
>
> The so-called present indicative & present subjunctive are, in fact,
> identical both in pronunciation and in spelling (In the days when
> Katharevousa was used, there were differences of spelling in 2nd & 3rd
> singular and the 1st plural). There is a single form and distinguishing the
> two uses as indicative & subjunctive is a hang-over from the Classical past.
> Philip Newton is more clued up on Modern Greek practice than I am; it may be
> the moderns have now dropped this archaic terminology.


? In ancient greek it seems just the subjunctive 1st singular was equal to
the present. The rest have a 'long thematic vowel', but I don't remember why
is this iota subscript there:

[http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ancgreek/paradigmsU/paradigms_U.html]

_égrapha_ is the past indicative of _graphō_, i.e. the "imperfect tense"
> (past imperfective) and _égrapsa_ is the past of _grapsō_, i.e. the "aorist
> tense" (past perfective).
>
> There's modern Greek grammar given on:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_gramma
>
> Although I haven't read it all in detail, what I have seen seems sound
> enough.
>
> [snip]
>
>>
>>
>>  Incidentally, I found this PDF on the negative imperative in An. Greek --
>>>
>>>> there was a word, "υΐος" (that's ypsilon-iota-omicron-sigma). How is
>>>> that
>>>> read? [y'ios]?
>>>>
>>>>  It's written υἱός
>>>
>>> In the ancient language the word accent was one of pitch, not stress.
>>> Also
>>> the initial /h/ was still pronounced in most (tho not all) dialects in
>>> those
>>> far off days   :)
>>>
>>> The ancient Athenian pronunciation would have been (something like)
>>> [hyjjo_Rs] (i.e. there was a rise of pitch on the [o] diphthong. In the
>>> modern language, it is simply /jos/     :)
>>>
>>>
>>>  Ah, thank you. I presume "rising" means like the Chinese rising tone.
>>
>
> Possibly - though I think the vowel was simply said on a higher pitch (i.e.
> a bit like the 1st tone of Mandarin).
>
> There is, however, a difference between a tonal language such as Chinese
> and a pitch-accent language. In Chinese most syllables carry a distinctive
> tone. In languages like Serbo-Croat & ancient Greek, one syllable in a word
> was marked out by a change of pitch. The _details_ of the ancient Greek
> system are not known, but we do know the vowel that carried the change of
> pitch in the Homeric (as pronounced in the Hellenistic period), Koine and
> Aiolic dialect of Lesbos - we simply don't know the others, but by
> convention they are usually printed with the accents of the ancient Koine.
>
> Sanskrit had a similar pitch accent and that is well described by the
> ancient Hindu phoneticians (mainly to ensure correct recitation of the
> scriptures). It is assumed that the ancient Greek pitch accent was similar.
> But there are unclear details (e.g. how was the grave pronounced?)


In sanskrit the svarita, 'grave', was lower in pitch. When a short vowel was
acute, the next vocalic mora was grave, like 'tátà', and the next mora after
a grave was toneless. There are cases where the acute vowel became a
semivowel, then just the 'independent svarita' survived, like 'svàr' for
'súar'. So we know more or less how it sounded... but the greek grave is
really another thing.


>
>
>  intonation fascinates me, especially when I read, say, Aristotle and
>> imagine
>> him speaking with florid prosody. The circumflex is low-high-low
>> (rise-fall)
>>
>
> Probably not, I think. It occurs only on long vowels & diphthongs; I think
> it showed the sound started on the high pitch and lowered to normal pitch
> (i.e. a bit like the Mandarin 4th tone, but longer). But an acute on a long
> vowel (or diphthong) probably meant the vowel began on the normal pitch and
> then shifted to high, hence the acute was always written on the second
> element of a diphthong.
>
>  and the grave is slightly lower than high, IIRC. (Please correct me if I'm
>> wrong!)
>>
>
> I can't correct you because we just don't know   :)
>
> The grave is a source of controversy. It would appear to indicate that the
> final vowel was not raised - but that would leave the word without a word
> accent. Some think it indicated, as you say, something between normal and
> high pitch. As Sidney Allen writes:
> "...[it] might be resolved by some modification of the high tone - but it
> must be admitted that the nature of the modification is unknown, and there
> seems little point in making a guess." [Vox Graeca]
>
>  Eugene
>>
>>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
> will always interfere with language".
>

Edgard.

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January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
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October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
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May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
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August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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