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CONLANG  April 2009, Week 4

CONLANG April 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Greek miscellanea

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:55:51 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (199 lines)

Edgard Bikelis wrote:
[snip]
>> As for the Greek, IIRC the division of strong & weak verbs does go
>> back to PIE. I believe something similar is found in Sanskrit. Can
>> the PIEists on the list throw light on this?
> 
> We usually say 'athematic' for strong verbs, and 'thematic' for the
> weak ones, because if a root, that itself is athematic, receives an
> thematic vowel (that changes between -e/o-, but it's not ablaut!),

Thematic & athematic forms occurred in ancient Greek as well, but it
doesn't correspond to the weak ~ strong aorist forms. If one speaks of
'athematic' verbs, one means those anomalous verbs like _dídōmi_ (I
give), _títhēmi_ (i put), _eimí_  (I am) etc where, in the imperfective
forms, personal endings were added with no intervening thematic vowel.

The thematic vowels in AG were also -e/o-, -o- being used before a nasal
consonant, and -e- being used elsewhere. The strong aorists were
normally thematic, having exactly the same endings as the correspond
imperfective forms. In the indicative they were:
singular: -on, -es, -e
   plural: -omen, -ete, -on

Some strong aorists are found without the thematic vowels, but the
majority have them.

[snip]
> 
> A weird problem is that, in athematic verbs, the subjunctive is made
> with the very same thematic vowel, and if the stem is already
> thematic, it's added twice, making the thematic vowel long.

Like in Greek  ;)

[snip]
>> 
>> The so-called present indicative & present subjunctive are, in
>> fact, identical both in pronunciation and in spelling (In the days
>> when Katharevousa was used, there were differences of spelling in
>> 2nd & 3rd singular and the 1st plural). There is a single form and
>> distinguishing the two uses as indicative & subjunctive is a
>> hang-over from the Classical past. Philip Newton is more clued up
>> on Modern Greek practice than I am; it may be the moderns have now
>> dropped this archaic terminology.
> 
> 
> ? In ancient greek it seems just the subjunctive 1st singular was
> equal to the present. The rest have a 'long thematic vowel', but I
> don't remember why is this iota subscript there:

You are correct, and the iota subscript is there because that's the way
the Byzantines wrote the 'long diphthongs' which had originally ended in
[i]. These seemed to have become simple vowels by the 2nd cent. BCE, but
the iota was still written; the Byzantines decided to tuck them beneath
the vowel - the ancients knew nothing of that convention. In 5th cent
BCE Athens they were still diphthongs. The subjunctive endings were, of
course, derived from those of the indicative, e.g.
Indic. -ō, -eis, -ei, -omen, -ete, -ousi
Subj.  -ō, -ēis, -ēi, -ōmen, -ēte, -ōsi

The diphthong _ōu_ /O:w/, tho still found in Ionic, had given way to
plain _ō_ /O:/ in Attic.

[snip]
>> 
>> Sanskrit had a similar pitch accent and that is well described by
>> the ancient Hindu phoneticians (mainly to ensure correct recitation
>> of the scriptures). It is assumed that the ancient Greek pitch
>> accent was similar. But there are unclear details (e.g. how was the
>> grave pronounced?)
> 
> In sanskrit the svarita, 'grave', was lower in pitch. When a short
> vowel was acute, the next vocalic mora was grave, like 'tátà', and
> the next mora after a grave was toneless.

Sidney Allen thinks that something similar happened in Greek. That, he
claims, is why the acute cannot normally be maintained on the last vowel
if another word follows: the is no next vocalic mora for the following
grave! If the word that follows is an enclitic, the acute was maintained,
because the word+enclitic form a single phonological word.

> There are cases where the acute vowel became a semivowel, then just
> the 'independent svarita' survived, like 'svàr' for 'súar'. So we
> know more or less how it sounded... but the greek grave is really
> another thing.

Yes, it is.
---------------------------------------------

Philip Newton wrote:
[snip]
> 
> I did check my Triandafyllidis, though -- the abridged version that's
>  used in Greek schools. And it talks about present indicative,
> present subjunctive, aorist subjunctive, etc.; for example it says
> that the "continuous future" (εξακολουθητικός μέλλοντας) is formed
> with the present subjunctive (υποτακτική του ενεστώτα) and the "point
> future" (στιγμιαίος μέλλοντας) is formed with the aorist subjunctive 
> (υποτακτική του αορίστου). And the verb tables always show both 
> present indicative and present subjunctive separately.

Even though they're identical    :)

I suppose tradition is bound to exert its influence in a language with
such a long history as Greek has!

> FWIW, it has this to say about the spelling difference: Παλαιότερα 
> ξεχώριζαν τις καταλήξεις της υποτακτικής (να έχης, να έχη, να έχωμε),
>  και αυτό συνεχίζεται και σήμερα ακόμη από μερικούς "In older times, 
> people distinguished the endings of the subjunctive, and this 
> continues to be the case even today for some/and even today there are
>  some who continue this practice". (In a footnote on the subjunctive 
> forms in the first paradigm covered, the verb έχω.)

I notice the different spellings for subjunctive - να έχης, να έχη, να
έχωμε - are not given in their proper Katharevousa forms, i.e. there are
no breathings on the initial vowels and the iota-subscripts have gone;
so one does wonder why people still continue to make things awkward by
maintaining in writing a distinction that long ago disappeared in the
spoken language.
-----------------------------------------------

Eugene Oh wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Are there verbs where the present indicative and present subjunctive
> are different?

Nope!

> That may be why the distinction persists - French present 
> subjunctives for -er verbs are identical to the indicative, but
> they're still shown separately in grammar tables because there are
> verbs for which they differ. (:

The Greeks don't have that excuse - it's just a hankering after the old
language     ;)

[snip]
>> So, it seems that Triandafyllidis at least still distinguishes the 
>> present indicative from the present subjunctive even if both forms
>> are identical. (And that what I learned as "the future form" is
>> still called "aorist subjunctive".)
>> 
>> "Aorist subjunctive"? But isn't the aorist, like Ray said, the past
>> tense
> of the perfective aspect? So they classify part of the aorist as past
> and part as future and still call them by the same name...

No - this is part of the confusion surround this pesky word "aorist"
(remember Trask gives four meanings for it!). When people speak of the
"aorist tense" or the "aorist indicative" of either ancient or modern
Greek, the mean the 'past perfective indicative.' But when they speak of
the "aorist subjunctive" they mean the 'perfective subjunctive' -
*nothing* to do with past time.

In modern Greek we have two futures: imperfective = /Ta/ + imperfective
('present') subjunctive; perfective = /Ta/ _ perfective ('aorist')
subjunctive. When it comes to the subjective - or the optative,
imperative, participles & infinitives, forget the _temporal_ labels!
------------------------------------------------------

Andrew Jarrette wrote:
[snip]
> Remember that outside of the indicative, the aorist was an aspect,
> not a tense -- so "aorist subjunctive" meant "perfective
> subjunctive".  

Exactly!

> Then the subjunctive in some cases evolved into the
> indicator of the future, so "perfective subjunctive" became
> "perfective future".  

No, no - the futures were at one time expressed by θέλω να /'Telo na/ + 
subjunctive (imperfective or perfective, according to meaning). i.e. I 
wish that ........

Eventually θέλω να, θέλεις να, θέλει να etc contracted to θα which 
became a preverbal particle, used before the subjunctive, to indicate 
future tense.

> The "aorist indicative" remained the perfective
> tense of the indicative, 

It remained, as it always had been, the past perfective indicative.
----------------------------------

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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