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CONLANG  May 2009, Week 2

CONLANG May 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: how to tell when you're conlang's complete-an idea

From:

Herman Miller <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 14 May 2009 22:06:47 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

> True, but are we to create a hierarchy of conlangs
> and conlangers where those who work on one
> language over a long time, and their languages,
> are more worth than those who create many sketches
> and their creation? I think not; anyone who
> creates new linguistic structures is a conlanger,
> and any newly created linguistic structure is a
> conlang. Sure there attaches an interest and a
> respect to a mature conlang, but not so that an
> immature conlang lacks interest, respect or value.
> Surely the principle of equal value of all
> conlangs and conlangers, however (un)developed
> the(ir) conlang(s) is fundamental to maintaining
> peaceful relations in our community; there is a
> definite danger in starting to make *value*
> judgments based on volume or persistency of
> eachother's work. We may have private and
> individual standards of comparison, but we should
> keep them private and personal and not try to
> impose them on the community.

Agreed that there doesn't seem to be any good way to objectively
evaluate conlangs. I think a good analogy might be the rise of so-called
"casual" games and the trend of a few "hardcore" gamers disparaging the
games that sell well for being too casual and lacking in depth. Well, I
can pick up a casual game and have fun with it right away, but it takes
time and dedication to get to the heart of a game that has more depth.
Then there are a few rare games like the Pokémon series that look casual
at first glance, but reveal a surprising amount of depth the further you
go with them. Similarly with conlangs, it takes time and study to
appreciate the finer points of a well-developed language. In a way,
sketchy conlangs are easier to appreciate. What we could use is a way to
present a conlang that starts out simple for the casual reader, but
reveals more depth as you go on. Marc Okrand had the advantage of
working with a conculture that was well known to begin with.

As long as we're discussing sketchy conlangs, here's the entire corpus
of my newest attempt, tentatively called "Zinaki".

E nezi byzaz menen le gede vezeh ti kahi temin.
NOM.SG fox quick brown LOC.SG dog lazy PRES jump over
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

Okay, that doesn't look like much work behind it, and it wasn't. But
even something as sketchy as this requires a lot of design decisions,
which can be compared with a more mature language like Minza.

Sašt-u niška marv-i šipš-i ida žeğ-u nizw-ei
(3sg.ABS)-jump-PF fox-(ABS) brown-ABS quick-ABS over dog-LOC lazy-LOC

> Do you have *any* feature left which is a
> characteristic feature of Sindarin, like lenition?
> As well as there is an ANADEW principle there is
> also a good case to make for an *A Conlang Already
> Dunnit* principle: it would take an agglomeration
> of features already found in any one same language
> (nat- or con-), and an *absence of features not
> found in that same language* to claim plagiarism.
> Clearly there is a level of fair use, however
> difficult it may be to objectively measure (and
> the community will punish any violator with their
> disinterest!)

Besides which, many features of Sindarin are obviously inspired by
natlangs, in particular Welsh. But I have to admit that I've borrowed
the occasional word from a conlang, like Quenya "ve" meaning "as".

> Computer generated vocabulary (CGV?) surely holds
> a threat, but that too is a two-edged sword. The
> benefit is that you get some substance to work
> with: having something to reject helps me to
> decide what to adopt. The same as with having
> stopgap morphology having however stopgap a
> vocabulary makes it possible to compose texts, and
> it is only through *using* words I can decide if
> they are right or wrong -- if, as Tolkien said,
> sound and meaning *fit*.

I've adopted a few of the randomly created Tilya words into the Minza
vocabulary, sometimes with arbitrary changes. Zharranh was a more
successful example. In the old days I might have rolled dice or used the
random number function on my calculator to assign an initial letter.
Random assignment certainly has its place. About half the time I come up
with a "real" word to replace the random word, but often it just needs a
little tweaking.

> the generator in fact gives me is a list of
> (perhaps all) possible syllables/roots/words of
> the conlang according to the phonomes and
> phonotactics I've designed. The cheat lies in
> letting the computer randomly collocate shapes
> from that list with meanings, but I (a) have never
> claimed those associations to be anything other
> than tentative, as open to revision as any aspect
> of a conlang, and (b) without it I'd waver around
> in the blue catching a useable (let alone fitting)
> association of sound and meaning only once in a
> blue moon: my own indecision would hinder me from
> even making a makeshift association, and I would
> be precluded from ever using my conlang for
> composition.

That's the problem with a blank canvas. I can take a piano keyboard and
play any note whenever I want, but unless I have a good idea to begin
with, it's easy to fall back on a bunch of overused patterns. I've found
that I'm more creative if I add constraints, especially when working
with microtonal music where _any_ pitch is possible.

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