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CONLANG  May 2009, Week 4

CONLANG May 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: artlang advocacy/evangelism

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 24 May 2009 13:37:07 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (166 lines)

On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:40 AM, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Fri, 15 May 2009, Brett Williams wrote:

> Yes, a real expert's game!  It's fantastic that anyone
> finds enough time to learn other's conlangs well
> enough to participate in this.  In chess talk, this would
> be Grand Master territory ... and rather frightening to
> mere hobby players such as myself!

It would be more impressive if we write texts
that don't need so much correction by the conlang
creator.  Last time I think we did a decent job
considering the time limits (2-3 months allowed
to study the target language before translating
into it), but I hope to do better this time.  So far
I've found more time to study Taruven than
I'd spent studying Urianian at the corresponding
point in the 2007 game, but not as much as
I want to.

>> level of expression to the language, with different letter forms that
>> give different flavors to the words. For instance, X can be written
>> as a heart: I very often use hearts when writing the various names of
>> my lover, such as "XXOX", and almost always when writing the common
>> word "XUO" which means "to think lovingly about". (I invented this
>> independently before learning about Deena Larsen's "Rose" script from
.....

> _Love_ to see some images of the cursive script, hearts
> and all!  Do you know of any other language (nat- or con-)
> with "allographs" for some or all of its graphemes?  I'm not
......
> another.  Rather, your n and u are two distinct letterforms
> in complementary, conditioned distribution; that's what I
> mean by "allographs".

There are natlang alphabets that have
allographs in complementary distribution,
e.g. the final and nonfinal forms of Greek lowercase
sigma; not to mention the more numerous
instances where the same phoneme is
represented by different allographs depending
on what phoneme it derived from in an older
form of the language or what foreign language
the word was borrowed from; but I suspect
that what you and Brett are
talking about here is indeed unique to conlangs,
namely *semantically* conditioned allographs.
E.g., English has /k/ represented by |c|, |q(u(e))|,
|ch|, |k| depending on the etymology of the
word; what if we had /k/ represented by various
allographs depending on the semantic category
of the word?


> ......... nor any deadly-serious IAL like
> Ido or Novial etc (Esperanto was tedious enough for
> me).  I guess my emphasis would be on "living artlangs";
> not that I'd exclude an engelang out of hand; still, there
> must be a sense of play and fun (even if it is intellectually
> very hard work!), and the potential for further, organic,
> even unexpected, growth.

Trying with perhaps limited success to avoid
auxlang-qua-auxlang advocacy, I'll put in a word
for Esperanto-qua-artlang: its artlangy aspects
and the creative aspects of Esperanto culture
don't become apparent until you've gotten past
the basic level and started using it and seeing how
more fluent speakers use it.  Without actually
having recorded any statistics, I'd guess that
in a typical Esperanto conversation there's more
wordplay and off-the-cuff neologisms and so
forth than in a typical conversation in English
of the same length between a similar group
of people.

I don't know enough about Ido and Interlingua
and their respective speaker-cultures to say
whether they have the same quality; but I suspect,
given Ido's similar derivational morphology,
that it could support a similar level of wordplay
if it had as many speakers as Esperanto, and
may already do so with its smaller number
of speakers.


>> Of course, at art museums also my preferred practice is to find a work
>> I especially like and devote a long period of time to seriously
>> studying it. I find that most deeply satisfying.
>
> The longer I look at anything, the more I itch to
> make something new!

This reminds me of something weird I encountered
in reading Plutarch's Life of Pericles.  He
distinguishes between accomplishments that
make us admire the person who accomplished
them and want to imitate them, and those where
we admire the result but don't think highly of
the doer or want to imitate them; and it appears
(this is the weird part) that he classes most
or all art in the latter category.  Is that a cultural
difference between the ancient Hellenistic
culture and our culture that I haven't noticed
before, or Plutarch's own quirk?   Or something
in between, a tenet of the school of philosophy
he belonged to but not common to the whole
culture...?


> OK, could work.  But how would you go about
> setting and maintaining standards?  Surely a
> "consulting linguist" or "consulting conlanger"
> ought to be at least a _qualified linguist_?   Or
> does that only apply where money is charged
> for services?  I think not; I'd hate for people to
> think us even flakier than they already might
> (thinking us weird is OK!) - which is what would
> happen if people had unrealistic expectations
> created but then left unmet.  What if, after several
> months of development, the conlanger's "client"
> said: "After all this time, you've done a horrible job;
> it all sounds so ugly!"
>
> In the software services industry, we protect both
> provider and client against this kind of eventuality
> by signing off an agreed specification of the
> product, before major development work is done;
> the preparation of the spec is done on a cost-plus
> basis.  How might this translate to conlanging-for-
> hire?

Problems with sotware specification writing,
which would be present also when writing specs for conlangs to be
implemented by someone else, is that often the eventual user doesn't
fully consciously know what they want; or they know what they want,
but aren't articulate in expressing it (perhaps for want of suitable
domain vocabulary); or they know what they want, but fail to say so
explicitly enough because they think they share more assumptions with
the programmers/conlangers than they actually do.  Instances of
problems of that kind that might occur in conlanging-for-hire, besides
the one you mention (unshared and unspoken assumptions about what kind
of phonology sounds good), I suspect mostly involve naive users
assuming that all languages are similar to their native language in
certain respects -- so they don't realize, for instance, that it's
necessary, if they want their conlang to have a definite/indefinite
distinction obligatorily marked with articles, for them to say so.

As more films and TV shows occasionally follow the example of Star
Trek in hiring people to create conlangs for background material, it
would probably be good for us to work on setting some kind of
professional standards or at least educating people about where to go
for good conlang design.  I would suggest that someone who's offering
to create conlangs for hire should have a proven track record in
creating interesting conlangs and documenting them well enough that a
linguistically naive person could learn them tolerably well from the
documentation, or perhaps some classroom language-teaching experience
if they're going to be personally teaching the language to
scriptwriters and actors and so forth.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

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