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CONLANG  May 2009, Week 4

CONLANG May 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The art of conlang critique (was Re: how to tell when you're conlang's complete-an idea)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 27 May 2009 22:25:56 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (232 lines)

Hallo!

On Tue, 26 May 2009 16:59:39 -0700, Sai Emrys wrote:

> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote: 
> > Yes.  But still, it is not always easy to say what is "natural"
> > and what is not.  There are surely things we can rule out as not
> > occuring in any natlang, such as oligosynthetic structure or
> > self-segregating morphology; but what would we think of e.g.
> > triconsonantal roots if the Afro-Asiatic family had not developed
> > them?  Such a device would probably seem "unnatural" to many
> > people - but the case of Afro-Asiatic shows that it *can* evolve
> > in human natlangs.
> 
> I consider "naturalism" to be, for the most part, a strictly reducible
> objective measure - you say what percentage of natural languages have
> that feature.

There are many things that occur in only very few natlangs and
are nevertheless perfectly naturalistic, and even if it doesn't
occur in any known language, doesn't necessarily mean that it is
unnaturalistic (while on the other hand, if it occurs in just
*one* natlang, that is sufficient to award it with the hallmark
of naturalism).  But overall, typological surveys of natlangs
are indeed useful guidelines.

> Some features interact with others of course, so you may need to take
> context into account (for example, head-modification and pre vs post
> positioning and the like are fairly correlated). But again, this is at
> least in principle a matter of pure frequency count.

Yes.  Certain patterns recur frequently among human languages,
while others are almost vanishingly rare, and a good naturalistic
conlang ought to take such patterns into account.  Also, some
features appear to be regionally skewed: for instance (judging from
what the _World Atlas of Language Structures_ has to say about that
matter), front rounded vowels appear to be common (but still far
from universal) in northern Eurasia but almost vanishingly rare
anywhere else.

>       (This is what 
> happens with Klingon - each feature itself is reasonable but uncommon;
> taken together, however, they are extremely unlikely.)

Right.  I am no expert in Klingon, but its phonology alone looks
*very* weird, because the phonemes do not neatly arrange themselves
in series but are splatted out randomly across the IPA chart (and
what little I know of its gramar, it seems to be similarly erratic).

This randomness is the reason why I find Klingon to be one of the
ugliest conlangs I have ever seen.  Of course, the Klingonists
counter that Klingons aren't human, but in my eyes, that is merely
a lame excuse for a poorly-designed conlang.  If we assume that
their oral anatomy is sufficiently human-like to produce the same
kind of speech sounds that humans use, one would expect their
phoneme inventories to follow similar lines of feature economy as
human ones, i.e. consonants lining up in series.  Of course, one
can imagine that due to some slight difference between human and
Klingon vocal tracts, for instance, retroflex and uvular are the
least marked coronal and dorsal places of articulation for them
(rather than our race's alveolar and velar) - but one would hardly
expect the kind of shotgun phonology we see in Klingon.

> For some things, the data simply isn't available, and for those it's a
> more subjective assessment.
> 
> One can then simply rate, overall, how natural a language is simply by
> summing up the probabilities of its features (contextualized, if
> needed) and seeing where it lies within the bell curve of real
> languages. Certainly there're always ANADEWs; those will be examples
> of the 2-3 s.d. range of natural-but-weird. I think a certain amount
> of unusual features is in fact to be expected in a normal language.

Yes.  Most natlangs have this or that "interesting" feature.
Even the "boring" SAE languages have some features which are
rarely found in other parts of the world.  However, "exotic"
features should not be overused - if you combine 20 features
each of which occurs in less than 1% of the world's languages,
you are probably heading in the wrong direction.  Myself, I
prefer a balanced mix of the typologically common and the
typologically interesting.  The point is that you should not
add more complication to your conlang without adding more depth.
This makes the difference between an interesting but believable
fictional human language and a kitchen sink conlang.

> (It's an odd element of human psychology that we think that rare
> events are rare overall; in fact, if something really bizarre doesn't
> happen to you at least once in your lifetime, that's pretty strange in
> itself, given the number of opportunities for rare things to happen.
> This leads to over-attribution to supernatural causes, IMO.)

Indeed.

> In any case, there *will* be a range of features that simply is not
> attested, and those one can justifiably call completely unnatural.

Yes; while the linguists' debate on universals is heated and
so far poor in valid conclusions, there are many things that
are found in *every* natlang examined so far, and departing
from them means that you are doing something unnatural.
Some examples of unnatural features I can think of are:

* grossly unbalanced phoneme inventories (e.g., only back
  vowels)
* productive use of graded signs (e.g., /pet/ is semantically
  intermediate between /pat/ and /pit/)
* self-segregating morphology
* taxonomic vocabulary (as in the 17th-century "philosophical"
  languages)
* absence of open lexical classes (e.g., "oligosynthetic"
  languages)
* massive center embedding
* stack-based syntax (as in Fith)
* implementation of a scheme of formal logic

There are probably many more, not to mention languages of
non-human beings that lie entirely outside human possibilities
of articulation or perception (e.g., ultrasonic languages).

> FWIW, I am definitely an engelanger and thus not a naturalist at all;
> I don't particularly give a damn whether a conlang is natural, only
> whether it is functional. So I don't consider "unnatural" a cuss word,
> as some of you may. ;-)

"Unnatural" is not a cuss word for me; it is just that in my
main project, the Albic family, I strive for naturalness.  As
some of you may know, I sometimes digress into engelanging
myself, and those projects (such as Quetech, a speedtalk
language also known as X-3, where all native morphemes consist
of a single phoneme) are indeed very unnatural.  Of course,
I keep those projects separate from each other (though the
thinking about morphosyntactic alignments and semantic roles
I got involved in with Albic does have a bearing, for instance,
on Quetech - at least, it taught me not to take such notions
as "subject" for granted).

> I also happen to think that there should be a strong difference
> maintained between things that *happen* to be universal, by
> circumstance of language evolution, and things that are *necessarily*
> universal, by circumstance of human neurology or physiology or the
> like. But it's unclear how to consider those features (or lacks
> thereof) that are universal only by circumstance. Do we consider it
> 'unnatural' because such a language, though plausible if it were well
> documented IRL, is not in fact attested?

This is indeed a question that is not easy to answer.  Certainly,
there are many more *possible* human languages than *attested*
ones.  No linguist qould probably deny that something like
Brithenig or Quenya could exist among the languages of our race
- it just happened that neither of the two ever evolved.  On the
other hand, most linguists would probably admit that something
like Lojban could never ever evolve as a human ethnic language
under normal circumstances.

As I have said before, if, just for an example, the Afroasiatic
family had died out without trace (or evolved in a very different
direction), most linguists would consider a morphology in which
the lexical meaning of a word is encoded in three consonants
between vowels are infixed to make concrete word-forms at least
very weird, if not unnatural.  But we know that it happened in
Afroasiatic, so we know that it is not unnatural.

> I think that the solution to this sort of dilemma is not to just wring
> one's hands, but simply to declare that there are two different
> criteria - attested frequency and theoretical plausibility - and
> assess them differently where needed. Usually, they'll be the same. Of
> course, the latter is rather more subjective, or at least not as
> theory-neutral... ;-)

Yes.  There is probably a hierarchy of universals of language.

First, there are features a language logically must have to offer
full expressive power.  Among these I would count the openness of
its lexicon, which in turn requires a duality of patterning (i.e.,
there is a small, closed set of "phonemes" which do not carry
meanings in themselves, but combine into a large number of
"morphemes").  Another is that every language needs a way to
distinguish the arguments of a predicate from each other (be it
by constituent order, case marking, verb agreement or whatever).
These "logical universals" would be found in languages of all
sapient species in the universe.

Second, there are features that are prescribed by the limits of
what humans can produce, perceive and process.  For instance, no
human language uses sounds humans cannot hear ;)  It is more
interesting, but also more difficult to determine these kinds of
limitations in the realm of grammar.  We can probably say that
the stack-based syntax of Fith lies outside these limits.
Universals of this sort will be fulfilled by any human ethnic
language, but languages of non-human species may break them.

Finally, there are things which *could* occur in human languages
but *do not*, for whichever reason.  It is likely that many of
the universals discussed by linguistis fall into this category.

> (Incidentally, my old essay:
> http://community.livejournal.com/conlangs/14524.html takes the same
> perspective. It is intentionally "an" not "the", and I tried to stress
> that my principles are mutually exclusive to some extent, thus that
> tradeoffs *must* be made and that where one chooses to set their
> balance is entirely subjective. However, once one *does* set the
> balance, one can go about evaluating one's success under those
> criteria.)

I would always be careful with such adjectives as "ideal" or
"optimal".  There are usually many ways to meet the design
criteria one sets for a project, and it is hard to say which
solution is the best.  As you say, you usually get trade-offs
between conflicting goals.

> > Nobody is born a master; and even the most coruscant
> > masters of our trade have cobbled together naive conlangs at the
> > beginning of their career.
> 
> Indeed, they tend to be the ones most willing to say what horrors
> their first conlangs were, and exactly why. ;-)

Yes.  Looking behind, I would say that Serindian, a conlang
I worked on some 20 years ago, did have some strong points,
but was in fact little more than a relex of German with a
fairly naive phonology (and the conculture connected with it
was pure hogwash - a starfaring civilization on Earth 12,000
years ago!?!); Nur-ellen, the Elvish language I started
nine years ago, also had *one* strong feature - the active/
stative morphosyntactic alignment with marking of degrees of
volition - but otherwise was a third-rate Tolkien derivative.
I do not regret having abandoned both projects, taking over
the few good ideas I had back then into what I am doing now.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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