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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  May 2009, Week 4

CONLANG May 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: artlang advocacy/evangelism

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 25 May 2009 18:22:42 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

Hallo!

On Fri, 22 May 2009 18:08:10 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:

> On Fri, 15 May 2009 02:18:32 -0400, Brett Williams <[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote: 
> [...]
> 
> >The gripping language, right?  (Does it have any other name than
> >that?)  
> 
> That's the one.  Probably it'll eventually have a native name.  

... which will consist of grips, of course, thus not really 
convenient for naming the language in English (other than in
translation) ;)

> > [rumor about Alex Fink having learnt several conlangs]
> >
> >I believe it.  Why not choose one or a few to become more familiar
> >with, though?  Does it not seem worth it, Alex, or you just don't want
> >to play favorites?
> 
> Well... I wouldn't say I've learnt anyone else's conlang.  Not in the sense
> that I could write anything at all in it without continual reference to the
> documentation, nor read anything other than occasional recognisable words
> plucked from a less-recognisable matrix -- which is what we mean, no?  
> 
> I really just read the documentation of a conlang, and come away with
> familiarity with some random set of the features, both those I thought were
> especially interesting or characteristic and those which I remember for some
> incidental reason.  This gives me enough knowledge to make a comparison of
> some feature in some other language to it later, as the typologists would,
> but that's around it.

Same with me.  I know a handful of trivia about several conlangs,
to the point that I have a good idea about their typological makeup,
but am not proficient in any of them except, perhaps, Esperanto and
its ilk, which are easy to master if you know a few Germanic and
Romance languages.  I don't even speak Old Albic, my own main conlang
- not yet, though I intend to learn it.

>       With natlangs I'm the same way: I know lots of trivia 
> about lots but aside from my L1 there's only two (French, Latvian) I can use
> to any degree, and neither of them fluently.

Besides my native German, I am only good at English, though I have
some working knowledge of Latin, French and Spanish, and know some
odd facts about several other languages.

>       And I'm a sucker for 
> collaborative conlanging, but there too I think I predominantly enjoy the
> opportunity for joint tinkering rather than the end result of having a
> usable language common with someone.

I am not much into collaborative conlanging, perhaps because I am
too much a loner personality for that, and one project I initiated,
which was about building a language family for the League of Lost
Languages, did not fly far.

> Why not more investment?  Interesting question -- but I can't think of
> anything more insightful to say ATM than that to the extent language
> builders and language learners are different breeds I represent the former
> and not particularly the latter.   

Same with me.  Building a language and learning an existing language
are two different things; I enjoy the former more than the latter,
and cannot say that I can actually speak even my main conlang, Old
Albic.  What is useful for conlangers, I think, is to have a good
idea of the typological diversity of the world's languages, but that
does not really require learning languages from various parts of the
world - it is sufficient to read grammar sketches (_The World's Major
Languages_, edited by Bernard Comrie, is a good starting point).

On Sun, 24 May 2009 13:37:07 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:

> Trying with perhaps limited success to avoid
> auxlang-qua-auxlang advocacy, I'll put in a word
> for Esperanto-qua-artlang: its artlangy aspects
> and the creative aspects of Esperanto culture
> don't become apparent until you've gotten past
> the basic level and started using it and seeing how
> more fluent speakers use it.  Without actually
> having recorded any statistics, I'd guess that
> in a typical Esperanto conversation there's more
> wordplay and off-the-cuff neologisms and so
> forth than in a typical conversation in English
> of the same length between a similar group
> of people.

I don't know what the Esperanto community is like, but I can indeed
imagine that they are especially open-minded towards word-play and
neologisms - after all, they are all people who have already
internalized the very idea that language can be created artificially.
(They also seem to have a healthy community sense, with the Pasporta
Servo and all that.)

It is indeed possible to approach auxlangs as artlangs; if you ask
me, most auxlangs I have seen look bland and uninteresting to me
(hardly surprising as many of the things that make good artlangs
interesting are against the purpose of an auxlang); I find Novial
very elegant, but Esperanto much less so - it feels too "blocky"
and hodge-podged to me.

> > The longer I look at anything, the more I itch to
> > make something new!
> 
> This reminds me of something weird I encountered
> in reading Plutarch's Life of Pericles.  He
> distinguishes between accomplishments that
> make us admire the person who accomplished
> them and want to imitate them, and those where
> we admire the result but don't think highly of
> the doer or want to imitate them; and it appears
> (this is the weird part) that he classes most
> or all art in the latter category.  Is that a cultural
> difference between the ancient Hellenistic
> culture and our culture that I haven't noticed
> before, or Plutarch's own quirk?   Or something
> in between, a tenet of the school of philosophy
> he belonged to but not common to the whole
> culture...?

I don't know.  With me, there are both works of art that inspire
me to do something similar, and others which don't.  Conlangs,
especially diachronic-naturalistic artlangs, are in the firt
category; ballet is entirely in the second - while I deeply
respect the skill and talent of good dancers, it does nothing
for me.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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