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CONLANG  May 2009, Week 5

CONLANG May 2009, Week 5

Subject:

Nominal Aspect for Location Nouns

From:

Eldin Raigmore <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 30 May 2009 14:10:28 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (117 lines)

Sometimes a location is referred to as if it were a point, or at least as if it 
might as well be a point.

On a scale where a map (if used) wouldn't show the shape of the city, nor any 
of its internal structure, (for instance if the city's name on the map is bigger 
than the city's representation on the map), in English we speak of being "at" 
the city. Other phrases also treat the city as a point-object.

For instance;
"I'm going to London to see the Queen".
"The next LCS conference will be at Reykjavik."
"He just came from New York."

But sometimes a location is referred to as if it were a point, or at least as if it 
might as well be a point.

On a scale where a map (if used) would show the shape of the city, and/or 
some of its internal structure (for instance whether rivers run through it, or 
some of its major roads), in English we speak of being "in" the city.  Other 
phrases also treat the city as having extent, shape, and/or internal structure.

For instance;
"The Houses of Parliament are in London".
"Where will you be staying in Reykjavik."
"We just now flew into New York."
"The Amtrak train will take us out of Chicago in a few minutes."
"I kayaked through Boston on the River Charles."

There's good reason to think of this as an aspectual distinction; referring to 
the city as if it were a point could reasonably be called "perfective" and 
referring to it as having shape and extent and structure point could reasonably 
be called "imperfective".

Do such things happen in other natlangs list-members know? Or know about?

------------------------------------------

Not only cities, but other types of locations, are treated with the same kind of 
distinctions in English.

For instance, a building, or a house.

Perfective: "He lived at #222B Baker Street." 
Imperfective: "He paced from room to room in his apartment."

Perfective: "Let's sleep together at my house tonight."
Imperfective: "Don't you speak that way to your mother in _my_ house, young 
man!"

And I think the same is true of streets; and perhaps also of rooms and other 
types of locations.

What about other natlangs than English? And what about other types of 
locations?

----------------------------------------

If we get science-fictional, planets and stars and other celestial bodies might 
be perfective if we're talking on a large scale -- maybe about a million planet-
diameters, or maybe a billion, or maybe a thousand -- but imperfective if the 
scale of discussion is less than the diameter of the body.

So if we're talking about moving around within the Solar system, we'd refer to 
a planet as if it were a single point; in fact we'd probably refer to the whole 
aggregate of the planet along with its satellites, as if it were a point.  But 
once we get close enough to the planet -- say, to where 99% of the gravity 
on an object comes from the planet, or, maybe 90% -- we might start talking 
about it as if it has shape, extent, and internal structure.  If our discourse is 
from a mental point-of-view (maybe not an actual pov) from which we could 
see that the planet wasn't a point, --- better yet, could see whether it wasn't 
perfectly spherical, or could see some of its features --- we'd speak of 
it "imperfectively".

If we're talking about interstellar travel, most stars (even some bigger than 
the Sun) look like points even to very good naked eyes from near most other 
stars (even closer than Alpha Centauri is to the Sun); unless the stars are in 
orbit around each other, as in a binary or more-than-2-ary system.

In fact, from the point-of-view of most stars, the nearest other star (which on 
average is about 10 or 11 light-years away) is probably far enough away that 
the whole aggregate of all the bodies that orbit it in stable (or quasi-stable or 
semi-stable) elliptical orbits, might as well be considered a single point; odds 
are we'd refer to that by the star's name.  If we were out by Tau Ceti, for 
instance, we'd probably say "I'm going to Sol" rather than "I'm going to Mars" 
or "I'm going to Ceres".

Probably we'd not consider the internal structure of the star's system -- Oort 
cloud, Kuyper belt, asteroid belt, Trans-Neptunian Objects, outer planets 
(Jupiter and further out), inner planets (inside Jupiter's orbit), etc. -- until we 
were a light-year or less from the star.  Or at least until a parallax-minute (the 
distance at which 2 AUs (the diameter of the Earth's orbit, about 1000 light-
seconds) would subtend an angle of one minute). 

Of course, even if we were 100 light-years away or further, we might be 
thinking and talking on such a scale; that is, the conversation might be 
exclusively about things 10,000,000,000 kilometers from the Sun or closer, and 
we'd be talking about getting around inside that volume, and where bodies 
within it were in relation to one another.  Maybe we'd be giving driving-
directions to a fellow Tau-Cetian who's going to Sol, and wants to know how 
to find Vesta when s/he gets there.

So we would speak of the Sun's system perfectively at one scale, but 
imperfectively at another.

-------------------------------------------

Has anybody thought about this sort of thing for their conlangs?
Or for their conworlds and concultures, if they're using a natlang for it?

-------------------------------------------

"Nominal aspect" has been brought up before as the distinction between count 
nouns and mass-or-measure nouns.

But I think there's less semantic bending and stretching and squeezing needed 
to apply "aspect" to locations.

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