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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 1

CONLANG June 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Qakwan

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:06:12 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

Replacing 'Q' with 'qh' doesn't really help the "q means kw" problem,
although it may mitigate it for the Q words.  And "drh" is really
ugly.  There's absolutely nothing rhotic about <D> /d`/.  Plain [d] is
a better approximation than [dr\] (remembering that American R is not
notably retracted, and is not really [r\] anyway - that's just as
close as you get with a simple X-SAMPA symbol).

I would have gone the other way and used more capitalization instead
of less. I think using K for q and KKH for Q might have prevented a
lot of the linguistic atrocities on TNG.  I particularly recall one
line (I think from the ep with Riker serving on a Klingon ship):
yIHarQo' = /jIxa4'qXo?/ pronounced "yee-HARR-kwo" [ji:'ha`r\:kwoUw]
with a distinct twang - the Klingon in question was clearly from
Southern Kronos.

On 6/2/09, Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Mark J. Reed skrev:
>>> AFAIK <Q> has not been used to denote /kw/ in any natlang, tho it
>>> certainly
>>> has in some conlangs. It has that value, for example, in Speedwords.
>>> Somewhat amusingly, I've found linguistically naive who have traveled to
>>> China, pronouncing <Q> in Pinyin names the same way   :)
>>
>> That happens with Klingon and Arabic, too - people see 'q' and think
>> 'qu'.  ([kwa'plax] is a common mispronunciation of {Qapla'}
>> /qX)ap'la?/ - including by actors on the TV series).
>
> Which shows that what Okrand *really* should have
> done to achieve his goal of getting a
> transcription which highlighted differences from
> English *and which actors and fans could wrap
> their head around* he should have used a set of
> digraphs with _-h_ but avoided _h_ outside
> digraphs:
>
> a b ch drh e gh kh/hh ih j l m n ng o p q qh r sh t tlh u v
> w y '
>
> with normal capitalization rules.
>
> NB that I normally detest the use of _-h_ as a
> Jack of all trades digraph maker, including it's
> use as a palatalization marker and fricativization
> marker (in descending order of horrificness), but
> *given the utilitarian purposes stated* the above
> would be an improvement on the present intercaps.
> (Of course _drh_ is actually horrible, but as a
> signpost for "something special inbetween 'd' and
> 'r'" it'd do its job. Probably you'd get [d`r\`]
> most of the time, but it'd at least contain a
> [d`]!)
>
>
>> What I don't get is when that pronunciation
>> shows up in combination with some clear
>> awareness of an equally inobvious
>> transcriptional convention. For instance, I've
>> heard the name of the game <xiangqi> pronounced
>> as [S&N'kwi].   I'm not sure how one can pick up
>> enough to know that <x> is /S/ (well, /s\/, but
>> that's a subtle distinction to the uninitiated
>> Anglophone) but still think <q> is /kw/. :)
>>
>
> I've come across that in Swedes too. (Obviously
> the notion that _x_ is something other than /ks/
> is easier to swallow than the notion that _q_
> is something palatal.  I think the fact that _x_
> stands for a sibilant plays a role, since a
> sibilant is the most salient part of the familiar
> pronunciation of _x_, as well as the fact that
> _x_ in Pinyin is always followed by _i_; I guess
> a Swede trying to say [ksi_X.aN] will
> automatically end up with [s\aN] as a _felix
> error_.
>
> I've heard _Qatar_ as [kv\_0a'tA:4] from an
> elderly Swede.  What do you give me for that!? ;-)
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
>   à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
>   ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
>   c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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