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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 2

CONLANG June 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Phaistos Disk

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:44:15 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (181 lines)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:38:31 +0100, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>> To assume that I was assuming that is equally silly, 
>> methinks   ;)
> 
> I didn't think you were, but it is not clear unless you use neutral
> language such as "a unique find" or "the only such item yet discovered".
> Just calling it "unique" implies that it actually is one of a kind,
> which we don't know. (Even if it is a forgery, there could have been
> prototypes before the forger was satisfied.)

I did add 'AFAIK", i.e. "as far as I know" which does, 
surely, qualify or limit the meaning of 'unique.'

But the uniqueness is not just the disk itself. It is (_so 
far_) unique in that:
- the symbols were not inscribed in the normal way, but were 
   apparently made by pressing pre-formed "hieroglyphic 
seals" onto the clay. No other example of this technique has 
so far been discovered from this period (2nd millennium BCE).
- the set of symbols (45 of them) are, so far, unique to 
this clay disk. They do not belong to any known script 
either from Crete (which was literate at this period) or in 
so far it is the the lands around the eastern Mediterranean.
- the disk has a smooth edge and was deliberately fired. All 
other clay tablets found, so far, on Crete or the Greek 
mainland were not fired deliberately but accidentally in 
burning buildings.

This does not, of course, mean that this script was not more 
widely used, that the technique of impressing pre-formed 
seals onto clay was not more widely used or that people on 
Crete did not sometimes deliberately fire clay inscriptions; 
it is just that to date no other examples of any of these 
_three_ phenomena have been discovered, i.e. so far it is 
the only example of each of these features that has been found.

The spiral direction of the writing has also been cited as a 
'uniqueness' - but we do know that spiral inscriptions are 
sometimes found among peoples that do not normally write 
that way, e.g. similar spiral inscriptions are found written 
in Etruscan, which is normally written right to left in 
horizontal lines.

> But yes, the theory I was proposing (and not with any great seriousness,
> although I certainly think it is a possibility) is that this was the
> hobby of someone eccentric or even quite, quite mad, at least for
> awhile. Things tend to be preserved by being buried before bad things
> happen to them. 

Yes - it is claimed by some that it was deliberately fired 
because its author wanted it preserved (of course that would 
certainly apply to a fake) and the idea that it was the last 
message before disaster struck is one that some 
"decipherers" have gone for. Inevitably, there has been a 
claim (more than one, I suspect) that it was left by a 
survivor of Atlantis. Of course that would explain the 
apparent uniqueness of the script as well the stamping 
technique: it's Atlantean script and the Atlanteans used the 
stamping technique!

> Culturally significant stuff gets buried with the dead.
> Outright trash gets buried as landfill. 

Yep - and the clay tablets, other than this one, were found 
in store rooms, their inscriptions being lists, inventories etc.

> Odd bits of insane artist
> product that have no real significance, but are too interesting to throw
> away, are unlikely to get buried. 

There may be other reasons. A common interpretation is that 
the Phaistos disk contains a sacred text used in some palace 
ritual. One reason cited is that it seems to have been found 
in main cell of an underground "temple depository." Also, 
the writing, if indeed it is writing, appears to contain 
repetitions which has led some to conclude that it is poem 
or hymn. They claim that it the use of impressed seals to 
produce the text is because of its sacred nature; the script 
is a sacred script, purposely different from the 'secular' 
Cretan hieroglyphic and Linear A scripts [^1] and that it 
was purposely fired because the priests wanted something 
permanent to use whenever ritual required it.

[^1] As far as I am aware, all other inscriptions found at 
Phaistos are in the Linear A script; I am not aware of any 
in the so-called 'Cretan hieroglyphic' from Phaistos.

> So a number are made and then one is
> preserved. Others may be preserved and undiscovered, but other could
> have been destroyed in antiquity. Even fired clay isn't the most durable
> of materials.

Indeed, not. If this was a religious artifact, then I would 
expect that other similar ones would have been made for 
other rituals.

> Ancient items are often called "unique" if they are the only item of
> that kind that has been found, but that prejudices thinking. 

It shouldn't.

[snip]

> Maybe they were mass produced for use in a ritual that involved smashing
> the tablet down to tiny fragments that'd be unrecognizable. 

Yes - but why fire the thing in the first place? The normal 
practice among the Minoans, as far as we can tell, was to 
just let the clay harden off at room temperature. That would 
surely have made the smashing easier and enabled it to be 
done more thoroughly.

> With that
> theory I can assume thousands of them, while explaining (a) why there
> aren't more found (they were reduced to powder and shards) 

Surely modern archaeological techniques are sophisticated 
enough to detect even powdered fired clay. As far as I'm 
aware, no other traces of such artifacts have been found in 
cultic areas of Cretan palaces.

> and (b) why
> the symbols are no recognizable writing (they're occult symbols of some
> magical rite, not writing in the normal sense). 

Yes, I stated above, this is not an uncommon theory.

> However, this does run
> into the problem of why nobody picked up on the more general utility of
> such a stamping method, 

Indeed - it could be that the process was used only for cult 
objects and that the technique was deliberately kept secret 
by the priests (or it was known only to the Atlanteans who 
did not pass the technique onto the Cretans. But what was 
the 'last of the Atlanteans' doing at Phaistos and why did 
s/he deposit the last message there?)

> so I prefer the lone artist who was regarded as a nut case.

Whereas I am inclined towards the modern hoax theory.

Another thing that troubles me is that there appears to be a 
vagueness in Pernier's description of the _exact_ location 
of the disk in the "temple complex" of the Phaistos palace. 
This has led scholars to date the thing variously from the 
early, middle of late parts of the second millennium BCE 
(quite a wide time-span).

I am reminded of the strange inscription known variously as 
the Psychro or Epioi inscription; see:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/Epioi.html

There are several things about this inscription which makes 
it 'unique' and exactly where it was "discovered" is 
unclear. It has now been shown to be a fake.

The Epioi inscription was kept in the archives and not put 
on public display by the Iraklion museum; so its authorities 
will not be put out to find it is a fake. The Phaistos disk, 
however, is on public display and is one of the artifacts 
the museum likes to show off, so one can understand why they 
are wary about a thermoluminescence test.

It would help, however, to know if the firing was ancient or 
done only in the early years of the 20th century.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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