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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: criteria for IE

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:28:31 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (71 lines)

Hallo!

On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:30:26 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> [...]
> >  (Presumably, it is possible for a language to become *un*-IE
> >  through attrition of all the grammatical wossnames that are
> >  hallmarks of IE langauges (someone has already mentioned the
> >  veral system (it might be noted that English's verbal system
> >  is *quite* different from French or Spanish or Latin or Greek)
> >  and the neut.nom./acc. identity of forms (well, English lacks
> >  that distinction too in several dialects though "it" itself
> >  remains a fixture of the standard dialect))).       
> 
> I would say not: if a language is descended from the protolanguage of
> a given language family, then it is, by definition, always a member of
> that language family no matter how much its words mutate into
> unrecognizability by sound shifts or are replaced by borrowed words,
> or how far its grammar drifts from the average grammar of the rest of
> the language family.

Indeed: if language X belongs to family Z, all its descendants will
belong to that family - forever.  No matter how much they change from
their ancestor.  Maybe, some descendant of English will be isolating,
monosyllabic and tonal, and some descendant of Hindi will be
polysynthetic and ergative - but they would still be Indo-European
languages, no matter how "un-Indo-European" they look.

An Indo-European languages may become "un-Indo-European" in its
appearance, but it can never become non-Indo-European!

> In practice, unless strong resemblances of lexicon remain between
> related languages, we can't *know* that they're part of the same
> language family; thus the conjectural nature of Nostratic and other
> deeper-time hypothetical language families.

Systematic sound correspondences in lexicon and morphology are what
proves relationships between languages; but if languages are very
distantly related, these sound correspondences usually become
unrecognizable, and the relationship conjectural.  It is indeed not
unlikely that all human languages descend from a single common
ancestor, thus belonging to a single huge family, but this will
probably remain unprovable within the foreseeable future.

>       But if, ten thousand 
> years from now, there's been no collapse of civilization and loss of
> information, and the then-living descendants of English and Lithuanian
> and Persian and Hindi have mutated so far from each other that they no
> longer resemble each other more than any random pair of natlangs,
> they'd still be Indo-European languages, and provably such from
> historical records.

Right.  If we had only the *modern* Indo-European languages at
our disposal, it would be much more difficult to reconstruct the
history of the family.  Fortunately, we have access to ancient
languages which bridge about half the time elapsed since Proto-
Indo-European, and are much more similar to each other than their
modern descendants.  It is easy to see that Sanskrit and Latin are
related; it would be much more difficult with just Hindi and French.

>       Or working in the other direction, if we were to 
> discover time travel and could prove the relationships of deeper-time
> language families, those family relationships would still be just as
> real in the cases where there's no significant resemblance between the
> modern languages as in the cases where there is.

Yes.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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