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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Systematic naming of political units in engelang or auxlang?

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:52:23 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Jim Henry wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:05 AM, kate rhodes<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> There are a variety of ways different countries subdivide themselves
>>> into political units, and a variety of names for such units in
> 
>> I tend to think of it in the opposite direction than what you were
>> describing because I don't believe that a language would naturally
>> evolve from country thoughts to town thoughts.... I think it's more
> 
> Which I why I specified engelangs and auxlangs in the title and in the
> body of the  message.   Clearly a natlang is unlikely to have this
> kind of systematic terminology, whether top-down *or* bottom-up, and
> neither should a naturalistic artlang.

Agreed.

[snip]
> 
> Getting back to the engelang issue, it would also be possible to
> derive words for political units in the other direction, from the
> bottom up; 

Or start in the middle! Begin, e.g. with ancient Greek 
concept of _polis_('city-state') and work both up and down. 
Anything's possible, of course, in an engelang.

> that is, in the U.S. context one would use a root word for
> "city" or "town" and then words derived from that for "county",
> "state" and "nation".   

Doesn't the US have smaller units than "city/town"? We do 
over here. Nor is nation exactly the top. We do have a 
British nation or 'United Kingdom'; but that entity is 
composed of four _home nations_: England, Northern Ireland, 
Scotland, Wales (in alphabetical order). I suppose in 
Esperanto (I'm not an Esperantist) that'd be _hejmaj 
nacioj_. Not to refer to each of those political entity as a 
_nacio_ would certainly upset many of their inhabitants.


> Thing is, in other countries (smaller ones,
> with fewer levels of government between the local and national level)
> the same word that means "state" when talking about the U.S. might
> mean "country" in other places, which seems an undesirable ambiguity.

See ambiguity of 'nation' above   :)

[snip]
> 
> What I'm trying to do here is avoid, in future engelangs and auxlangs,
> the kind of apparently unnecessary semantic complexity we have in
> Esperanto (and maybe in Ido and Interlingua, I suspect) where fairly
> similar political entities are described by different words depending
> on what country we're talking about (and vice versa, different kinds
> of political entities described by e.g. the same word "sxtato"), and
> entities with a logical hierarchical relationship (whether you prefer
> to view it from top-down or bottom-up) are described by a haphazard
> set of unrelated root words instead of most of the words in this
> semantic domain being derived from one or a few words for the more
> basic concepts (as Esperanto does more coherently in several other
> semantic domains).

Personally, if in Esperanto "fairly similar political 
entities are described by different words depending on what 
country we're talking about (and vice versa, different kinds 
of political entities described by e.g. the same word 
'sxtato')" then IMO Esperanto is being practical. This is 
surely part and parcel of the debate about whether an 
auxlang should be a_posteriori, a_priori or a mix of both. 
IME one of the things that turns some people off even from 
Esperanto is that it looks and/or feels "too artificial" 
(NOTE: I'm _not_ saying whether it is or not; I'm merely 
reporting an attitude I have come across several times). The 
sort of approach that Jim is advocating seems to me 
appropriate for an a_priori auxlang, but certainly not for 
an a_posteriori auxlang.

As for engelangs - that surely depends upon the design 
objectives of its author.

[snip]
> 
> Is the word for "city/town" a derived word rather than an unanalyzable
> root (at least synchronically) in any natlangs y'all know of?  It's a
> root word in all the natlangs I'm familiar with, which isn't all that
> many.

What is a "city". The 'City of London' is a very small area, 
about a square mile, on the north bank of the Thames within 
the large metropolitan area known as 'Greater London.'

Over here a city is a town (or in the case of the City of 
Westminster & the City of London, a former town now part of 
a much larger conurbation) hat has been granted city status 
by the Sovereign and conferred by Letters Patent.

I think this does not apply in the US, where the difference, 
presumably, is one of size    ;)

Personally, I would advise any auxlanger to avoid this 
mine-field and adopt a similar approach to Esperanto's.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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