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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Why no Greek capital upsilon with psili?

From:

Andrew Jarrette <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:02:14 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (180 lines)

On Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:14:28 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 2009-06-06 Andrew Jarrette wrote:
>>
>[)] without a following backslash is standard
>CXS for a tie (U+0361) which is perhaps a little
>overused in CONLANG practice[^1]. Its purpose is to show
>that the two preceding symbols constitute one sound;
>thus e.g. [Oi)] is a diphthong rather than two syllables.
>
>[^1]: The more widespread IPA practice seems to be to
>use the syllable-division symbol [.] (a period) so that
>a disyllabic sequence is written [O.i] and [Oi] is
>understood to be a diphthong.  Personally I think that
>notation practice seems preferable to current CONLANG
>practice, i.e. we should reserve [)] for actual
>coarticulation, as in [gb)] for a labiovelar.
>
>[(\Y)\y:] is just shorthand for "[Yy:] or [y:]";
>since [)] is a tie in CXS I use [(\] and [)\]
>for 'literal' parentheses indicating an optional sound.
>This is an extension of established CXS usage
>where [B\ G\ H\ L\ N\ R\] correspond to IPA smallcaps
>while the same capital letters without a trailing
>backslash denotes other symbols in IPA.  Of course
>the analogy doesn't extend to other CXS cap+backslash
>notations.
>
>Come to think of it my use of C\ and V\ for
>any consonant/any vowel probably clashes with
>the labiodental flap which has a reasonable
>claim to be [V\] although I use [v`] for it.

I appreciate the info.

>
>>
>> What about just <8>, as you wrote in "/8:/"?  When I
>> checked CXS, that's what I found for the close-mid
>> central rounded vowel.  But is that the phoneme you
>> meant?  I thought Swedish "long u" was rather a high
>> central rounded vowel, CXS <u\>?
>
>Most Swedish accents have one phoneme which is [8]
>when short and [8\:] when long, or two phonemes
>/8/ and /8\:/, depending on whether you analyse
>vowel length as a prosodic feature dependent on
>stress and syllable structure or not; phonologists'
>analyses as well as native speaker intuitions vary.

I don't see the symbol <8\> anywhere on Henrik Theiling's CXS.  What IPA
phoneme does this refer to?

>
>I made a mistake in my narrow/standardized
>transcription of [8\]: it should be [8_+_w], i.e.
>a fronted and labialized [8], using Ladefoged's
>definition of 'labialized' as "pronounced with
>adduction of the center of the lips" as against
>'rounded' which is "pronounced with adduction of
>the corners of the lips", which describes
>accurately the main difference between [8\] and
>[2].

So is [8\] different from [8] in that it is more fronted and labialized than
[8]?  Do they both have "adduction of the center of the lips" but one more
than the other?

 (Those are not L.'s exact wordings; I have
>mislaid "A course in Phonetics" ATM.) An [8\]
>differs rather strikingly from [u\] as found in
>Norwegian and some Swedish accents/dialects. It is
>both lower and more front.  The use of [u\] to
>denote [8\] is only a result of the IPA's stubborn
>refusal to adopt a [8\] symbol on the grounds that
>the two sounds aren't distinct phonemes anywhere,
>which may not be true of all varieties of Swedish.
>In any case the two sounds are performing a
>shibboleth function between 'dialect' and
>'standard Swedish' in some areas.
>
>[8\] might surely as well have been written
>[2_w] or [2\], but it agrees best with the
>intuitions of Swedish speakers to base its
>notation on [8]. Moreover Swedish /y:/ and /2:/
>are overrounded compared to their German or
>Norwegian counterparts -- certainly in order to
>optimize their distinction against [8\:].
>
>>>> The trick to teach a Finnish speaker to distinguish
>>>> Swedish /y:/ from Swedish /8:/ is to tell him or her
>>>> that Finnish _hyi_ 'ouch' sounds like Swedish _hy_
>>>> 'complexion' (which is _iho_ in Finnish), but means
>>>> the same as Swedish _hu_, and the mnemonic _Hu, jag
>>>> har d�lig hy_ = _Hyi, minulla on huonoa ihoa_ 'Ouch,
>>>> I have a bad complexion'. ;-)
>>
>> I once read an essay in a linguistic journal that talked
>> about southern Swedish dialects, and I remember it used
>> the graphemes <yj> and <yw> when talking about some of
>> the Swedish vowels.  I wonder, could the first be an
>> attempt at your "long y", and the second an attempt at
>> your "long u"?  If so, are these representations at all
>> accurate in their description of those sounds?
>
>Southern Swedish dialects are well-known for extensive
>diphthongization.  While [yj] may be accurate for many
>non-Southern speakers' "long y" [yw] is certainly not
>accurate for most non-Southern speakers' "long u". A
>better, though still inaccurate, approximation might be
>[8w] or [2w] or rather [8B] or [2B], where the [B] is
>approximant rather than fricative in most accents and
>dialects. (Not in mine: I have a phoneme which may be
>written /B_o=/, which contrasts with a phoneme /8/.
>There are no true minimal pairs for the long allophones,
>but there are a number for the short allaphones towards
>the dialect end of the 'dialect/regional standard'
>continuum, e.g. /'hB_o=n:3n/ 'the dog' vs. /'h8n:3n/
>'having had time to'.  They differ in toneme too, but
>that's a separate parameter from vowel quality.)
>
>> (I don't
>> speak Swedish and have only heard it spoken maybe once in
>>  1988, apart from checking out Lisa Ekdahl's songs on the
>> internet (love "Vem vet" - I notice she pronounces "vet"
>> as though it were written "viet", or "vee-et" in English
>> spelling.
>
>Actually [e@:].  I have centering diphthongization
>of long vowels too, but only in closed syllables.
>My pronunciations of _vit_ and _vita_, singular
>and plural of 'white', differ quite strikingly:
>[vi@:t] vs. ['vz=:ta]; _vet_ [ve@:t] and _veta_
>[ve:tQ] are perhaps less striking.  /e:/ would
>never be realized with a close first part; AFAIK
>no native speakers have /e:/--/i:/ merger. However
>[e] may sound like [I] to an English speaker,
>especially in [e@].  For speakers which have such
>diphthongization all long vowels are affected, but
>it may be most noticeable in mid front vowels, and
>often occurs only in closed syllables.
>
>> I also noticed this with the Swedes I met in
>> Germany in 1988.  I found it curious because the Swedish
>> phrasebook I had said to pronounce this vowel as though
>> it were spelt "vate", i.e. IPA [ve:t].  But I have never
>> heard a Swede pronounce it this way.
>
>For non-rhotic Englishes "vairt" may be a closer
>approximation.  I actually think Swedish speakers
>without diphthongization of long vowels in closed
>syllables are a dying breed.  It makes me think of
>elderly actors at the Royal Dramatic Theatre! ;-)
>
>> And is "long ä"
>> really [E:] or is it closer to [e:]?  A commercial on
>> Canadian TV that features a Swedish or mock-Swedish tour
>> guide has him pronouncing "Lake Mälaren" as though the
>> "ä" were pronounced [e:], as it seemed to me.)
>
>Some speakers have merger of /E:/ and /e:/, especially
>those from the Mälaren area.  Those that maintain the
>distinction may have centering diphthongization in
>some or all contexts, which also may make the two
>difficult to tell apart for foreigners -- especially
>since [e@] and [E@] may be variants of a single
>phoneme in English.
>


I very greatly appreciate all your correct information about the
pronunciation of Swedish.  It is very revealing and edifying to have the
personal testimony of a native speaker who is also well versed in phonetics.

Thank you,

Andrew

P.S.  My reply is very late because I was visiting family in Florida for 8 days.

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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