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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Teaching/Learning Methods; Collaborating

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:10:12 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (172 lines)

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:59 PM, M.S.
Soderquist<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> If you've created lessons for your conlangs, what sort of method did you
> follow for that? Is the order of lessons you present based on your own
> knowledge of language teaching methods, based on methods you've seen in
> textbooks for natlangs, or was it suggested by the grammar itself?

The lessons for gzb (which are very outdated; I haven't even converted
them to Unicode yet, much less updated them for the points of grammar
and vocabulary that have changed since I wrote them around 2000 or
2001) I based partly on a set of Esperanto lessons I encountered in
1996, which took the approach of starting with the simplest aspect of
the language and moving on from there; I think it started with
impersonal present-tense verbs (weather verbs, mostly).   In the first
gzb lesson, I started with "behold" sentences, vocative sentences, and
first-person intransitive verbs: the simplest sentences possible in
gzb.  When and if I eventually revise or rewrite the lessons I'll
probably keep that aspect of their organization.

> For those of you who have learned (even a little bit) of your own or someone
> else's conlang, what sort of methods did you use? Flashcards? Translation
> exercises?

I learned Toki Pona by working through jan Pije's lessons (which have
a good set of exercises, Toki Pona sentences to translate into English
and vice versa), then reading archives of the tokipona listgroup and
diving in and starting writing posts in Toki Pona.  It took about two
months to get to a reasonable level of reading/writing fluency.

In studying Lars' Urianian for the first inverse relay, I bascially
worked through his lessons and emailed him when I had questions about
points where the lessons seemed unclear (usually it had to do with
words whose English gloss was ambiguous).  I wrote out some of the
Urianian noun and verb declension patterns on sheets of paper and
carried them around with me to refer to when away from the computer
occasionally. Then during the week of my relay turn, I sent him
several mails asking him about specific points of grammar and
vocabulary where I couldn't figure out what to do based on just the
lessons and lexicon (again, more often a case of ambiguous glosses
than of words I couldn't find in the lexicon at all).   I managed to
write a Urianian text that was comprehensible enough to not distort
the relay too much, but I never got anywhere near comfortable using
the language.

In studying Kaleissin's Taruven for the next inverse relay, I've
worked through his online grammar, sending him emails with questions
about ambiguous points; more recently I've been composing sentences
and sending them to him for correction.

My own gzb I've learned primarily through writing extensively in the
language, primarily my journal, and re-reading old journal entries
(and translations, original stories, sentences illustrating points of
grammar or semantics, etc.) from time to time.  I've done other things
-- made word lists (sometimes with hand-drawn pictures or diagrams, or
clip art) and carried them around with me to review when away from the
computer, used a flashcard program to quiz myself on the lexicon, once
even writing the words for body parts on myself with a marker on a hot
day when it didn't make sense to wear many clothes.  But writing a lot
and re-reading what I've written frequently was probably the single
most useful thing I've done.

A couple more points about writing in gzb -- when I was at the
Esperanto immersion course at San Francisco State, someone said "Por
lerni lingvon, oni devas fari mil erarojn" (to learn a language, one
must make a thousand mistakes).   I've generally tried to keep writing
when I'm not sure about some point of lexicon or grammar, and just
make a note in the margin to check myself later, rather than interrupt
the writing to look things up.   Sometimes when I'm totally blanking
on a word form, rather than remembering it but uncertain whether I'm
remembering it correctly, I just write a long underline to leave a
blank space to fil it in later, and put a question mark in the margin.
 I also use similar marginal symbols when I coin a new word while
writing.  Periodically I go over recent journal entries and other new
writing and look for those symbols, then add new words to the lexicon,
etc., and make handwritten corrections to the text in the notebook.
If I've misremembered a word form, I make an erroneous/variant form
entry in the lexicon, too.


> the words aloud to. I've had fair luck with learning through keeping a
> journal and talking to myself, but the latter makes people give me funny
> looks.

I've recorded myself reading passages from my journal, using my
cellphone's voice recorder function, and played them back from time to
time.  The sound quality isn't great, though; at some point I need to
get a microphone and try doing the same with a computer.


> And on the collaborative side, I've participated, however marginally, in a
> couple of collaborative conlang projects that sort of fizzled out, and I've
> thought about starting yet another such project myself, just for fun. I
> enjoy using my conlangs as much or more than tinkering with them, and I'd
> love the opportunity to do some social conlanging.

Yay!   I'm usually game for another collaborative conlang, unless I'm
insanely busy, which I'm not right now and probably won't be until my
inverse relay turn starts.

> Since I've seen some other projects collapse due to loss of interest and
> fragmentation (people wanting different things from the language), I've been
> thinking of ways to counter that to keep such a project running for a while.
> I think I'd want it to be a fun, social venture. Sure, there might be some
> serious linguistic discussions and decisions to be made, but I am not sure
> that that is enough to keep people coming back, especially if the decisions
> go against their suggestions. I think that it might be useful if the group
> felt like a community-- a virtual tribe, so to speak.

Great minds think alike.  Search the archives of the group for a
recent message from Brett Williams containing the word "zebra", and
the thread following that. :)


> I've also been giving some thought to how to manage and document a
> collaborative language-- a website, but with a forum, email list, blog,
> wiki, or some combination? This would sort of be

I reckon a combination of a mailing list and a wiki would work pretty
well; the former for detailed discussions, and the latter for
registering the results of decisions on grammar and vocabulary, the
final drafts of texts contributed to the corpus, etc., so a newcomer
doesn't have to read all the list archives to get up to speed.

A blog in addition might make sense for summarizing significant events
and decisions for people who don't want to or can't keep up with the
volume of list traffic.

> For those who have started or participated in collaborative projects, what
> were your experiences like?

Kalusa was by far the most enjoyable collaborative conlang I've ever
been involved with, and I'd like to do another conlang by the same
corpus-based collaboration method again sometime.   (I've used a
similar method solo for some of my recent artlangs, writing corpus
senences with glosses in gzb and not writing up the grammar and
lexicon until later if at all.)   Gary's more recent project TAK was
similar, but with a more cumbersome user interface, which may be why
it didn't last as long as Kalusa.

> What kind of management does such a project
> require? In retrospect, how would you do things differently or want things
> done differently?

The things that killed Kalusa, I think, were (1) a certain user
writing lots of forum posts with sockpuppet handles, manipulating the
discussions; (2) an apparent automated attack on the corpus, voting
down lots of sentences until they were deleted; Gary fixed that defect
in the software by disallowing multiple votes on the same sentence
from the same IP address, but serious damage to the community spirit
had already been done.

The design of TAK may have been influenced by a desire to avoid the
problems Kalusa had with anonymous corpus-contributions and voting,
and then with unverifiable pseudonymity and sockpuppetry; but maybe
the structure added to ensure that all corpus contributions were
identified with a specific user, making the system harder to use,
reduced the set of people interested in participating to a group too
small to maintain momentum.  I reckon a system that combines the best
aspects of Kalusa and TAK could improve on them; for instance, the
corpus-management engine of Kalusa plus logins required to add to or
vote on (but not to view) the corpus, plus the forum design of TAK.
Combining that with your and Brett's ideas about building the actual
speaker-community's culture in tandem with the fictional conculture
would probably help a lot, too, maybe by combining the
language-discussion forums with a MMORPG or MUD of some kind, as you
suggest.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

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May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
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April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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