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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Systematic naming of political units in engelang or auxlang?

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:50:16 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:05 AM, kate rhodes<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> There are a variety of ways different countries subdivide themselves
>> into political units, and a variety of names for such units in

> I tend to think of it in the opposite direction than what you were
> describing because I don't believe that a language would naturally
> evolve from country thoughts to town thoughts.... I think it's more

Which I why I specified engelangs and auxlangs in the title and in the
body of the  message.   Clearly a natlang is unlikely to have this
kind of systematic terminology, whether top-down *or* bottom-up, and
neither should a naturalistic artlang.

> likely that people would be concerned with their town, big towns vs
> little towns, then groups of towns, and small(ish) scale geographical
> regions ("from the sea to the river") which would probably eventually
> become a county or state.

All true, historically.  Independent villages predate city-states
which predate nations which predate empires, I reckon.

Getting back to the engelang issue, it would also be possible to
derive words for political units in the other direction, from the
bottom up; that is, in the U.S. context one would use a root word for
"city" or "town" and then words derived from that for "county",
"state" and "nation".   Thing is, in other countries (smaller ones,
with fewer levels of government between the local and national level)
the same word that means "state" when talking about the U.S. might
mean "country" in other places, which seems an undesirable ambiguity.

Maybe we could approach it from both ends, with one root word meaning
"smallest local level of government in a given place", something with
no further political subdivisions; and another root meaning "sovereign
nation or empire or federation or confederation or whatever",
something which is not subject to political control by any
higher-level political structure.  Then words for intermediate levels
could be derived from either or both of those roots.   So in the U.S.,
"smallest_govt_unit-superordinate-1" would mean "county" and would be
synonymous with "sovereign_nation-subordinate-2" in that context (but
elsewhere those words might mean something different).

What I'm trying to do here is avoid, in future engelangs and auxlangs,
the kind of apparently unnecessary semantic complexity we have in
Esperanto (and maybe in Ido and Interlingua, I suspect) where fairly
similar political entities are described by different words depending
on what country we're talking about (and vice versa, different kinds
of political entities described by e.g. the same word "sxtato"), and
entities with a logical hierarchical relationship (whether you prefer
to view it from top-down or bottom-up) are described by a haphazard
set of unrelated root words instead of most of the words in this
semantic domain being derived from one or a few words for the more
basic concepts (as Esperanto does more coherently in several other
semantic domains).

> So, I think it's artificial feeling to start with the political and
> work down to the practical. Probably better to start with the
> practical and then figure out how the political can be easily overlaid
> on top of it.

For an engelang or auxlang, in addition to the words describing the
way government is organized in national-to-intermediate-to-most-local
levels, one would probably want  a separate word for
"city/town/village", from which more specific words for cities of
particular sizes, and for metropolitan areas and megalopolitai and
downtowns and suburbs and so forth are derived.   My gzb has two words
for "city/town": mâ-ĵwa, place where people live densely, and
rî'mâ-ĵwa, a place dense with houses/buildings.  I don't have separate
words for particular kinds or clusters of cities yet, except for the
implicit big city/small town words that could be easily formed with
augmentative/diminutive suffixes or big/small modifiers.

Is the word for "city/town" a derived word rather than an unanalyzable
root (at least synchronically) in any natlangs y'all know of?  It's a
root word in all the natlangs I'm familiar with, which isn't all that
many.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

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