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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Changing standard word order

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:20:58 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

On Jun 16, 2009, at 11◊51 AM, kate rhodes wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:00 PM, Paul Hartzer  
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>> From: kate rhodes <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Well, for most speakers that dialect *is* their mother tongue. They
>>>> get American "Standard" English in school and on TV, but African
>>>> American Vernacular English is what almost everybody they know  
>>>> speaks.
>>>
>>> But what do you call it if not Ebonics? I haven't hear another  
>>> word for
>> it.
>>>
>>> -Kate
>>
>> What Garth (and the EMU link you provided) said: It's called African
>> American Vernacular English, or AAVE. I'd go so far as to say that  
>> "Ebonics"
>> strikes me as a derogatory term, despite the apparent original  
>> intent,
>> because it was fairly quickly latched onto by white conservative
>> language/culture purists as evidence that liberals were trying to  
>> give
>> blacks a free ride instead of making them learn the same language  
>> as "the
>> rest of us" (despite the fact that AAVE shares a lot of features with
>> Southern speech, which aforementioned language/culture purists tend  
>> to see
>> as quaint, homey, and old-fashioned, not as uneducated).
>
>
> yeah but A) no-one ever says "African American Vernacular English"  
> except
> people having scholarly discussions and B) it's misleading because  
> AFRICAN
> Americans don't talk that way. It's *American* Americans who happen  
> to be
> black who talk that way.  Furthermore we don't say "Brittish American
> Vernacular English" to refer to the English spoken by descendants of  
> our
> former rulers or Asian American Vernacular English for the common  
> errors
> East Asians make with English....  I think the problem people have  
> with
> "Ebonics" is it's obvious association to "black", except that is  
> EXACTLY
> what the association should be, because it has nothing to do with  
> the origin
> of the people who speak it and everything to do with a social group  
> that has
> formed around skin color.

Unless, of course, non-black speakers speak AAVE (which is
possible and happens--it is nothing more or less than a dialect).

> Sorry, I just take issue with "politically correct" BS like that.  
> Maybe
> Ebonics isn't a great name for it but it's more accurate and more  
> widely
> recognized that AAVE.

You're not going to get very far with that on a list with so many
linguists.  AAVE is the name (most of the time it's pronounced
[Ave] now), and it wasn't created by the PC folks, but by linguists.

> Also, I've lived in the south (Arkansas), and the sentence structure  
> and
> word pronunciation is MUCH closer to standard English AND many  
> northerners
> DO tend to, incorrectly, associate a lack of education or  
> intelligence with
> strong southern accents.

I don't know about that.  Personally, I find AAVE, much like
Hawaiian Pidgin/Creole English, to be very, very close to
Standard English.  Two of the main features they discuss--for
example, double negation and dropping the copula--is something
English speakers of all stripes have been doing naturally for
centuries, whether or not it was sanctioned by a perceived
social class of some kind.  In fact, there are few (if any) features
of AAVE not found in other varieties of English.  It's a unique
collection, perhaps, but certainly not strange by any stretch of
the imagination.

-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.com/

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