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CONLANG  June 2009, Week 3

CONLANG June 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Changing standard word order

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:26:13 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:51 PM, kate rhodes<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> yeah but A) no-one ever says "African American Vernacular English" except
> people having scholarly discussions and B) it's misleading because AFRICAN
> Americans don't talk that way. It's *American* Americans who happen to be
> black who talk that way.

"African-American" means "American of African descent".  Of course, if
you go back far enough, we're all of African descent, but never mind.
It's an accepted term for Black Americans.  It's certainly an overused
term, as demonstrated by its use in reference to non-American
Blacks(!) but it is nevertheless the standard term for Black
Americans.  Regardless of what ethnonym you choose, however, it's
simply not very common to refer to dialect in question as "Black
American English".

> Furthermore we don't say "Brittish American Vernacular English" to refer to the English
> spoken by descendants of our former rulers

Because that's what evolved into the prestige dialect.  So we call it
"Standard American English" instead.

> Asian American Vernacular English for the common errors East Asians make with English....

Now you're conflating two entirely different things.  East Asian
Americans who grow up as native speakers of English don't have a
stereotypical dialect of English that corresponds to AAVE for Blacks.
If they did, there would probably be distinct ones among different
communities (e.g. Koreans vs Japanese vs Chinese from various
locales), but if there did for some reason arise a common dialect
spoken by *native Anglophone* Americans of East Asian descent, then
"Asian-American Vernacular English" is probably exactly what we would
call it.

The common speech errors made by East Asians speaking English as a
second language are in the same general category as the common speech
errors made by Americans speaking Spanish as a second language.
Native Africans learning English as a second language make similar
errors, though of course the type of error varies with the differences
between the first and second language, and most Africans these days
who learn English do so starting at a rather young age, which
minimizes the errors.  But the occasion of speech errors made by some
newly-naturalized American from Botswana, who somehow magically
avoided learning anything but Setswana until late in life, would not
have anything to do with AAVE.

>  I think the problem people have with "Ebonics" is it's obvious association to "black"

No, I don't object to calling Black folks "Black", so there's no
reason for that association to argue against "Ebonics".  It's just
that AAVE is value-neutral, whereas "Ebonics" has essentially been
coopted by those who use it derogatorily, as you did in your first
message.

> what the association should be, because it has nothing to do with the origin
> of the people who speak it and everything to do with a social group that has
> formed around skin color.

What "social group"?  AAVE is phenomenally widespread among all sorts
of different populations of Blacks, urban, suburban, and rural.  And
it's what people in these communities grow up speaking, not some
affectation they learn at the local club.

> Sorry, I just take issue with "politically correct" BS like that. Maybe
> Ebonics isn't a great name for it but it's more accurate and more widely
> recognized that AAVE.

Trying to use inoffensive labels is politeness, not political
correctness.  In any case, this mailing list is not the general
public, and we throw scholarly terms around all the time.

> Also, I've lived in the south (Arkansas), and the sentence structure and
> word pronunciation is MUCH closer to standard English AND many northerners
> DO tend to, incorrectly, associate a lack of education or intelligence with
> strong southern accents.

I wasn't talking about the general US Southern dialects.  I grew up
and still live in Georgia, so I'm quite familiar with that sort of
"accent" and the reactions to it by Northerners.  When I said there
were Caucasion dialects that are as "radical" as AAVE, I was talking
about small communities in Appalachia, West Virginia, New England
where the local variety of English is quite different from the
standard.

The idea that there is a single variety of English that is "correct",
and that people who don't speak that way are being willfully ignorant,
is simply wrong.   It is certainly true that, as a matter of social
norms, people who learn the standard dialect have more opportunities,
so it's all right to encourage that study.  But everyone speaks the
language they grow up learning, and it is bigotry to accuse someone of
laziness for doing so.

-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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