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CONLANG  July 2009, Week 1

CONLANG July 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: On the subject of conscripts...

From:

Kelvin Jackson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:00:59 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (154 lines)

Just another idea: you could take into account consonant deletions  
that occur in fast/colloquial speech, and write the "reduced" forms.  
For instance, "strengths" would be written as "strengs" (with an  
unvoiced /s/), since it is easy for the /T/ to disappear when  
speaking fast.

On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Eldin Raigmore wrote:

> The problem with using a syllabary, or an alpha-syllabary, for  
> English or for
> several other languages, will be how to denote superheavy syllables.
>
> Syllabaries are best suited to languages with a (C)(V) or (C)(V)(V)  
> syllable-
> structure, or a (C)(C)(V) or (C)(V)(C) syllable-structure where one  
> of the
> consonants is very restricted.
>
> They're certainly possible with (C)(C)(V)(V) or (C)(V)(V)(C) syllable-
> structures, or with (C)(C)(V)(C) or (C)(V)(C)(C) syllable- 
> structures where one
> of the consonants is highly restricted; especially if there are  
> also stand-alone
> consonant-symbols and stand-alone vowel-symbols.  Many alpha- 
> syllabary-like
> abugidas have one or the other or both; a diacritical mark on a  
> symbol, like a
> virama, might indicate "no vowel"; another might indicate "no  
> consonant".
>
> But if the language allows both diphthongal nuclei and coda- 
> clusters (as well
> as onsets); or both onset-clusters and coda-clusters; or both onset- 
> clusters
> and diphthongal nuclei (as well as codas); then making and using a  
> syllabary
> will be a problem.
>
> In general the following kinds of syllables will cause problems:
> * Syllables with clusters of four (or more) consonants, whether in  
> the onset or
> in the coda.
> * Syllables with tetraphthongal (or longer polyphthongal) nuclei  
> and either an
> onset or a coda.
> * Doubly-closed syllables with triphthongal nuclei, or triply- 
> closed syllables
> with diphthongal nuclei.
> * Syllables with three-consonant clusters, whether in the onset or  
> the coda,
> and also a consonang at the other margin or a diphthongal nucleus.
> And so on.
> In schema, anything as complicated as, or more complicated than,
> CCCCV, CCCVC, CCCVV, CCVCC, CCVVC, CCVVV, CVCCC, CVVCC, CVVVC,
> CVVVV, VCCCC, VVCCC, VVVCC, VVVVC
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> English allows three-consonant onsets and four-consonant codas in  
> the same
> syllable; it also allows diphthongal nuclei, and probably allows  
> triphthongal
> nuclei.  (I don't think there are any tetraphthongal syllables in  
> English?)
> /str\`INkTs/, for instance.
> English three-consonant onsets are pretty restricted: /s/ + /p,t,k/  
> + /l,r,w,j/.
> But English two-consonant onsets are rather loose; if the last  
> consonant is a
> sonorant (w,j,l,r,m,n) or the first consonant is a fricative,  
> that's nearly all
> that's required to make it legal.
>
> Most English consonants can appear in all six of the following  
> positions:
> * only consonant of a one-consonant onset
> * first consonant of an onset-cluster
> * last consonant of an onset-cluster
> * only consonant of a one-consonant coda
> * first consonant of a coda-cluster
> * last consonant of a coda-cluster
>
> English diphthongs are also rather unrestricted; that is, most  
> vowels can
> appear in a diphthong with each of at least five other vowels in  
> one order or
> the other.
>
> In any language in which the number of consonants that can appear  
> anywhere
> in the syllable, exceeds the number of vowels, super-heavy  
> syllables -- say
> CCVVCC -- are going to cause trouble for a syllabary.
>
> (Or that's my opinion.  Perhaps I'm underinformed, undereducated,  
> and wrong.
> Or perhaps I'm just not brave enough to tackle it.)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -----
>
> Superheavy syllables happen in English, but, it's my impression,  
> few English
> words have more than one superheavy syllable, and for most English  
> words
> with a superheavy syllable, the superheavy syllable can be in only  
> one of a
> few positions (last or penultimate? penultimate or antepenultimate?  
> or is it at
> the front end?)
>
> Actually, it's my impression that long onset clusters (if any) are  
> usually in the
> primarily stressed syllable, or the first stressed syllable, or the  
> first syllable;
> and that long coda clusters (if any) are usually in the primarily  
> stressed
> syllable, or the last stressed syllable, or the last syllable.  So  
> it's my impression
> most superheavy syllables occur in words with only one stressed  
> syllable.  In
> fact the only words I can think of at the moment, that have superheavy
> syllables, are one-syllable words.
>
> If your script has symbols for all the stand-alone consonants and  
> all the stand-
> alone vowels, then it contains an alphabet.  Why you would  
> nevertheless want
> symbols for syllables as well I'm not sure; it would mean some  
> (most?) of your
> words could be shorter (perhaps requiring half as many symbols per  
> word), but
> it would require you to have many, many more symbols.
>
> If you have no symbols for stand-alone consonants nor stand-alone  
> vowels,
> you could write those superheavy syllables as more than one simpler  
> syllable:
> write <sa ta re Na Ta> for "strength", for instance.  Several  
> languages and
> several scripts take that approach.
>
> If you have an abugida instead of a syllabary, you could add a "no- 
> vowel
> diacritic" and a "no-consonant diacritic" and, in effect, have an  
> alphabet
> included in your abugida, and use these symbols for stand-alone  
> consonants
> and stand-alone vowels only when the syllable you want to write has  
> clusters
> in it (whether consonant-clusters or vowel-clusters).  Several  
> languages take
> that approach, too.

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March 2005, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 1
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