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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  July 2009, Week 2

CONLANG July 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: phonology, critique pls

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 11 Jul 2009 03:03:32 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (130 lines)

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:38:34 -0400, Brett Williams <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Jim Henry<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> The consonant inventor seems reasonably symmetrical but not
>> unnaturally so.   I suspect it's pretty unusual for a natlang to have
>> /n`/ and /F/ but not /n/ or /m/, but I don't know for sure.

Very much so.  To the best of my knowledge /F/ is not attested as a phoneme
anywhere at all.  /n`/ is a fine phoneme, of course, but the lack of plain
alveolars alongside most of your retroflexes is again something I've never
seen, esp. for /t d n/.  

Even if there were languages out there with a phoneme which _ought_ to be
described with /n`/ on intralinguistic grounds but lacked an /n/ to contrast
with it, especially if /n`/ had [n] as a realisation -: I wouldn't be
surprised if their descriptions would call the one phoneme /n/ anyway, for
cross-linguistic markedness reasons, and even just because it's a plainer
letter, easier to write and type.  

>Part of what I was thinking in designing this was that I might want to
>teach the language to some fellow English speakers.  

Mm, the consonant system does look very English to me, the fricative system
especially.  (And /T D/ especially especially.  These are rare in natlangs:
WALS calls their frequency 10%, UPSID 7.1%.  By these standards they're
really overrepresented in conlangs.)

>So I wanted to
>include /n`/ and /F/, but I thought it would be unreasonable to expect
>someone raised on English to hear the difference between those and /n/
>and /m/, so I left those out.  I figured they'd end up as allophones
>anyway, whether I wanted them to or not, the only question being how
>strongly to discourage them.

"End up as"?  Among whom?  Are you saying you are going to look purely to
how the users of the language, who we can expect to be predominantly English
speakers, speak it to determine its allophony?  

>> It's also unusual (or unheard of?) for a natlang to have only one click.

Yes, I think "unheard of" is right, if we exclude such marginalities as the
clicks are in English (and maybe even then: perhaps you get several
marginally once you get one).  

Despite Jim's invocation I'm not any particular expert on clicks, but
there's one fact that people on the whole (under the influence of IPA charts
I think) fail to appreciate and that accordingly I find myself preaching a
lot: in natlangs that honestly have them, clicks form a _two-dimensional_
system, both place of click and manner of coarticulation varying.  Well,
there's some question of whether these clicks with coarticulations should be
phonemically single segments or clusters, but AIUI the distributional facts
are clearly those.  Generally I say that when people are making
one-dimensional systems of clicks, but you've got yourself a
zero-dimensional system here...

Oh, and for what it's worth, the X-SAMPA for the bilabial click is /O\/; the
O is capital, like the circle in the IPA character.  

>> It's a little unusual to have /&/ but not /a/ or /A/; it's not unheard
>> of, though.   Hixkaryana, like your conlang, has /&/ and /O/ but not
>> /a/, /A/, or /o/.

Yeah, I think the vowels are sound.  Impressionistically there are not a few
natlangs which have skewed five or six vowel systems much like yours. 
Yukaghir and Hopi come to mind as having /2/ but no high front rounded V. 
But for what it's worth both of them also have something like /e/.  I bet /e
2/ or /E 2/ are actually stabler contrasts than /3 2/, despite what a
featural view might suggest, for acoustic reasons: rounding and backing both
lower F2 (that's why they tend to cooccur).  

>OK let me give that a try:

More informatively yet you could throw together a grid.  Here's mine.  As is
my habit I've collapsed several places between which there isn't a contrast,
but it's fine not to do that.  

        lab   dent  alv   retr  back
nasal      F                 n`
stop    p  b              t` d` k  g
fric    p\ B  T  D  s  z  s` z`    h
appr                         r\`   j
lat appr                     l`
trill      B\
click   o\

Hopefully you're reading in fixed pitch and see the spacing.   

>> What are the phonotactics like?  I infer from the  fact that you're
>> using double letters as diacritics that you don't have geminate
>> consonants...
>
>
>Well I guess I could write them some other way, but no I wasn't
>planning to have geminates.  Actually I feel a little lost trying to
>figure out my phonotactics.  I'd like to have lots of closed
>syllables, and a fair number of allowed initial clusters.  I don't
>have any idea how to go about picking which clusters to allow, though,
>except to pick ones that seem sayable to me-- which in my ignorance
>would probably just mostly be ones I'm already familiar with from the
>languages I know.  Are there any general principles I can follow?

The sonority principle is one broad one: it says that consonants tend to
sort themselves into a unimodal (one-peaked) sonority curve within each
syllable, so that sonority climbs as you approach the nucleus and then falls
away as you pass it.  This says onset clusters generally have increasing
sonority and codas decreasing.  A simple sonority hierarchy is
  [low] stops < fricatives < nasals < liquids < glides = high vowels < low
vowels [high]

Sometimes languages can vary this -- i.e. in English fricatives do funny
things, and for onsets at least they need to come before stops: /sp st sk/
are okay onsets but their reverses aren't.  (Anyway the existence of a
series of s+C onsets is a pretty Indo-European thing, and so you might avoid
that if you're trying to eschew the familiar.)  

What else?  Sonority is about MoA, and of course it needn't be the only type
of MoA constraint; you have a good bit of freedom to in- or exclude
particular sequences of manners.  Voice in obstruent clusters tends to be
constant throughout.  Place constraints in tautosyllabic clusters can be
either assimilatory or dissimilatory (the former is likely more prominent
but a good number of languages seem to dislike obstruent-approximant onsets
that can be thought of as homorganic, like */tl/ and */pw/).  And it's not
uncommon for geminates to be specially barred, as you were planning.  

Oh -- this isn't a matter of clustering, but regarding clicks, I think that
they only occur in onsets in the natlangs that have them.  

Alex

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