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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: A spoken-only conlang

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2009 04:36:06 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I do think that the (de facto) standard here
> includes CXS and the whole <s> /s/ [s] bit,
> where "standard" is not meant judgmentally:

Fair enough, although my impression is that
while the word "standard" is not necessarily
judgemental, the term "standard of discourse"
is.  I'm trying to find a definition of the
term and so far I'm failing.  A google search
simply for "standard of discourse" (with
quotes) includes mostly references to high
or poor standards and other value-laden terms
("fair and equitable", "appalling", etc.).  One
or two hits out of 20 or 30 could possibly be
using the term in a neutral sense.

So, if you meant "standard terminology":

   "So what's necessary to know about languages to
   be able to _use_ them isn't what determines the
   [standard terminology] on the list."

I think this is the assumption I'm trying to question.
To what extent is it necessary to know Linguistics
to create a good language, a usable language,
an interesting language, etc.?  To what extent is
it necessary to use CONLANG-list terminology to have
an intellegent discussion on conlanging topics?

This isn't to say that there's anything wrong with
the terminology -- only that it should be understood
that it does present a barrier.

As to your (new?) point -- that "CXS and the whole
<s> /s/ [s] bit" is the standard here -- that's not
in question.  It's so clearly standard that people
like Jim Henry (whom, I'll add, I've met on a few
occasions and hold in high esteem) will reflexivly
use these conventions in other contexts with people
not in the know.

> Your last mail, in which you used [ch] [j] for
> what most round here would denote [tS] [dZ]

Thanks for that.  And thanks to Mark for explaining
/N/ for my /ng/ in the other thread.  This helps.

[On making assumptions about YOU or ONE]
> "One" was my intent, certainly not "you"
> (is that really worse)?

I'm not sure.  I originally wrote "is not much
better".  Certainly I'll agree that "one" feels
less personal and gives you (Alex) a better chance
of finding someone who would indeed fall into
that trap ... but let's move on.

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote
> [M]ost members of CONLANG [...] are crafters,
> and may or may not be learners as well.

But can't we all just get along?  :-)

> So we could replace e.g. the symbol /s/ with a
> long, precise phrase like "the sound in the
> language under discussion which is typically
> pronounced like the 's' in English 'see'", or we
> could replace it by an equally concise but less
> precise symbol like "s" or s.   But preferring
> to maximize both precision and consiseness,
> we use IPA or CXS symbols, and the /phoneme/
> [phone] notation, and so forth.

I can't disagree with your point, but I hope you
can see how it could be a problem for someone who
simply wants to discuss /s/ and /z/ in Pakuni (two
sounds) and can't find reference to what the symbols
<>, //, and [] mean.

> To my mind the danger is not so much of unclarity
> in one's thinking -- <...>
> -- but of unclarity in discussion.

Fair enough.

> And that danger is greater or less in proportion
> as the language the discussion happens in has a
> less or more phonetic writing system.

And seeing that Pakuni has a writing system not
unlike that of the H-method of Esperanto (with
pakuni-Y taking the place of Eo-J, and Pakuni-J
for Eo-GX.), I thought the danger was small and
I could avoid mucking around with these conventions.
Apparently not, which is why I appreciate Mark and
Alex "translating" for me.

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---


      

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