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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Common Romansh spelling (was Re: Venetian Grammar online)

From:

Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Aug 2009 12:56:05 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (107 lines)

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 23:10, Benct Philip Jonsson<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> also digraphs and trigraphs like _träis_ for TRES,

Interestingly enough, this one would be handy even for some of the
existing written standards... IIRC, Sursilvan _ei_ does not have a
uniform pronunciation, with some having something along the lines of
/EI/ and others along the lines of /ai/, so a graphy which already
represents that range of pronunciations might end up being adopted
there, too :)

I'm not sure whether the variant pronunciations of _staziun_ and
similar words there (rising vs. falling diphthong: staziún vs.
stazíun) needs to be reflected in orthography, though.

> Do you know what Sutsilvan _ea_ stands for?

No, I don't. However, my impression is that Sutsilvan is the most
"compromise-y" orthography of all five idioms (or that the range of
'lects whose speakers use Sutsilvan as their common written standard
is the most diverse), so it's quite likely that this sound, too,
differs from village to village in its precise realisation.

Strangely enough, I wonder whether this will "resolve itself" by the
fact that Sutsilvan has (IIRC) the smallest number of speakers these
days, so more learners may be approaching it as a second language and
be influenced by the spelling more than by the traditional
pronunciation of their respective village....

> <fret>I wish I could get my hands on more relevant info;
> I'm in the wrong nook of the woods...</fret>

The _Lia Rumantscha_ has a number of works available for purchase from
their shop....

Unfortunately, they don't provide any shipping cost estimates on their website.

I'd also be interested in more information.

> As for the famous _*ei_ > _ek/eg_ change it could perhaps be written _eh_.

Which one is that? Is that the "Diphthongverhärtung" (
<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthongverh%C3%A4rtung> ) in eastern
Surmiran variants? (Now that I've read the page: and in some Putèr
variants?)

Though apparently that change was not reflected in writing anywhere
(in the case of Surmiran at least, because the orthography was based
on the speech of a town which did not exhibit that phenomenon).

>> A separate letter for /z/ would also be useful; currently, _s_ is
>> ambiguous between /s/ and /z/. (Well, it can also stand for /S/, but I
>> think only in positions where /s/ is not possible, and that
>> environments where both can occur explicitly use _sch_ in RG.)
>
> /s/ vs. /z/ is a tough one. Perhaps _ś_ for /z/, even though
> the acute would mean something different from _ć ǵ_?
> However since "stressed vowels in open syllables are short before voiceless
> consonants, long elsewhere" perhaps one could use _ss_
> for /s/ if there are no actual /s/--/s:/ or /z/--/z:/ contrasts.

I think Romansh does not have any phonemically geminate consonants, so
that might work. And _ss_ is already in use (I think the reflexes of
CAUSA have it: chaussa etc.), at least between vowels. (Not sure
whether universally or only in some cases.)

The main problem would be word-initially, or after a consonant:
"Ssursselva" looks pretty odd to me. (Interesting how "Surselva"
typically has [s] while "sur" typically has [z]. AFAIK, the most
common pronunciation word-initially is [s], with "sur" and "sut" being
the most notable exceptions.)

>> How are you going to handle differences in vocabulary and syntax?
>> Allow all possibilities (cf. RG's use of both western _mo_ and eastern
>> _be_ for "only")?
>
> Yes, why not?  Any language has vocabulary,
> morphology and/or
> syntax which not every speaker uses, or variants
> which are unevenly spread across the speaker/writer
> community.

Ah, hm. Thinking about the situation of German, yes: "Klempner" and
"Spengler" coexist peacefully, as do "Schreiner" and "Tischler",
"Samstag" and "Sonnabend", "Möhre" and "Wurzel" (and "Karotte" and
"Gelbe Rübe"), etc. etc., all of which are part of the standard
language though most common in the regions where the cognate words are
traditionally sued. And as you say, most people use only one word of
each pair/set but will mostly understand the other ones, too.

> This seldom impedes understanding,
> even though it places some demand on passive
> competence.

*nods* You'd have to have come across the non-local ones in order to
recognise them.

I daresay that most Germans-from-Germany would be flummoxed by an
Austrian talking about "Paradeiser", "Karfiol", "Marillen", or
"Ribisl", and even "Jänner" and "Feber" would probably give them
pause, for example; Austrian German simply isn't heard much in
Germany.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>

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