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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Common Romansh spelling (was Re: Venetian Grammar online)

From:

Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Aug 2009 00:01:03 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (204 lines)

Philip Newton skrev:
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 23:10, Benct Philip Jonsson<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> also digraphs and trigraphs like _träis_ for TRES,
> 
> Interestingly enough, this one would be handy even for some of the
> existing written standards... IIRC, Sursilvan _ei_ does not have a
> uniform pronunciation, with some having something along the lines of
> /EI/ and others along the lines of /ai/, so a graphy which already
> represents that range of pronunciations might end up being adopted
> there, too :)

Cenceivably one have

_ai_ = /aI/
_ei_ = /EI/
_äi_ = /aI/~/EI/
_ee_ = /E/~/EI/
_äe_ = /E/~/EI/~/aI/
_ae_ = /E/~/aI/

although I don't know if all these would be needed.
Perhaps the last three can be _é è â_ instead.

Come to think of it diaphone spellings should
probably mean "some dialects have x and some have
y" rather than "dialect A has x and dialect B has
y", or the system will get hard to handle.  Still
they serve the purpose of alerting the reader to
the fact that there *is* a variation and they will
need to find out what the proper pronunciations in
their and their interlocutors' dialects are. Thus
FORMA and TOTUS should probably have the same
grapheme _û_.  As for EGO if there is variation
between some or all of the set /eu au ou a/ in
other words that set could be written _á_ and EGO
could be _eá_.

> I'm not sure whether the variant pronunciations of _staziun_ and
> similar words there (rising vs. falling diphthong: staziún vs.
> stazíun) needs to be reflected in orthography, though.

Not if no potential minimal pairs are involved, I should think.

OTOH I'd distinguish _ú_ /'u/ and _ù_ /'o/ in the
interest of learners.

>> Do you know what Sutsilvan _ea_ stands for?
> 
> No, I don't. However, my impression is that Sutsilvan is the most
> "compromise-y" orthography of all five idioms (or that the range of
> 'lects whose speakers use Sutsilvan as their common written standard
> is the most diverse), so it's quite likely that this sound, too,
> differs from village to village in its precise realisation.
> 
> Strangely enough, I wonder whether this will "resolve itself" by the
> fact that Sutsilvan has (IIRC) the smallest number of speakers these
> days, so more learners may be approaching it as a second language and
> be influenced by the spelling more than by the traditional
> pronunciation of their respective village....

*sigh!*  That's why I favor a rather 'narrow'
orthography, and diaphonic spellings for a
panlectal orthography: spelling pronunciations
replacing authentic pronunciations is precisely
*not* my idea of dialect pronunciation!  When
writing Bohuslänska I distinguish some sounds
(notably _ä_ [&] and _â_ [a]) which are probably
allophones, but which learners/revivers would
probably not get right otherwise, even though this
happens at the price of writing the equivalent of
Swedish _ä_ /E/ consistently as _ê_. OTOH I write
e.g. _ʳt_ and _ˡt_ in spite of both being /t`/ and
neither contrasting with /lt rt/. I also write
/r`_l/ as _ł_ in spite of preferring _rld_,
because the only Swedish word which has this
trigraph _värld_ 'world' has [d`] in 'standard'
Swedish, thus Bohuslänska _väł_ rather than _värld_,
ironically.

>> <fret>I wish I could get my hands on more relevant info;
>> I'm in the wrong nook of the woods...</fret>
> 
> The _Lia Rumantscha_ has a number of works available for purchase from
> their shop....
> 
> Unfortunately, they don't provide any shipping cost estimates on their website.

I could take a stab at making my library buy them! ;-)
I assume some of them are written in German, and
that if the library is unwilling one could write in
German and ask for shipping costs.

> 
> I'd also be interested in more information.
> 
>> As for the famous _*ei_ > _ek/eg_ change it could perhaps be written _eh_.
> 
> Which one is that? Is that the "Diphthongverhärtung" (
> <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthongverh%C3%A4rtung> ) in eastern
> Surmiran variants? (Now that I've read the page: and in some Putèr
> variants?)
> 
> Though apparently that change was not reflected in writing anywhere
> (in the case of Surmiran at least, because the orthography was based
> on the speech of a town which did not exhibit that phenomenon).

Exactly that.  It's sad to see the article saying that the
'hardened' forms are dying out exactly because the orthography
doesn't express them. _Vh_ would be a good compromise spelling
because those who dont have the hardening can treat _h_ as a
zero grapheme, and would be conditioned to do so by German
orthography.

BTW Faroese has a similar phenomenon:

ON kú > kúgv /kIgv/ 'cow'
ON nýr > nýggjur /'nUddZUr\/ 'new'
ON ey /9i/ > oyggj /OddZ/ 'island'

I guess that if Icelandic and Faroese
had a common orthography _kúh, nýhr, eyh_
would be reasonable spellings (and
_haugur/heyggjur_ > _hayhgur! :-/)

>>> A separate letter for /z/ would also be useful; currently, _s_ is
>>> ambiguous between /s/ and /z/. (Well, it can also stand for /S/, but I
>>> think only in positions where /s/ is not possible, and that
>>> environments where both can occur explicitly use _sch_ in RG.)
>> /s/ vs. /z/ is a tough one. Perhaps _ś_ for /z/, even though
>> the acute would mean something different from _ć ǵ_?
>> However since "stressed vowels in open syllables are short before voiceless
>> consonants, long elsewhere" perhaps one could use _ss_
>> for /s/ if there are no actual /s/--/s:/ or /z/--/z:/ contrasts.
> 
> I think Romansh does not have any phonemically geminate consonants, so
> that might work. And _ss_ is already in use (I think the reflexes of
> CAUSA have it: chaussa etc.), at least between vowels. (Not sure
> whether universally or only in some cases.)
> 
> The main problem would be word-initially, or after a consonant:
> "Ssursselva" looks pretty odd to me. (Interesting how "Surselva"
> typically has [s] while "sur" typically has [z]. AFAIK, the most
> common pronunciation word-initially is [s], with "sur" and "sut" being
> the most notable exceptions.)

Ugh, yes, something like _ś_ for one or the other
of the sounds (probably actually /s/!) would be
preferable, though it would require keyboard fiddling
for Windows users -- though _s'_ or _'s_ as an alternative
should probably be accepted: _Śurśelva/S'ur'selva_.
Too bad ſ has no capital form, or it could be used for /z/!
(It should look like a turned J, of course!)

>>> How are you going to handle differences in vocabulary and syntax?
>>> Allow all possibilities (cf. RG's use of both western _mo_ and eastern
>>> _be_ for "only")?
>> Yes, why not?  Any language has vocabulary,
>> morphology and/or
>> syntax which not every speaker uses, or variants
>> which are unevenly spread across the speaker/writer
>> community.
> 
> Ah, hm. Thinking about the situation of German, yes: "Klempner" and
> "Spengler" coexist peacefully, as do "Schreiner" and "Tischler",
> "Samstag" and "Sonnabend", "Möhre" and "Wurzel" (and "Karotte" and
> "Gelbe Rübe"), etc. etc., all of which are part of the standard
> language though most common in the regions where the cognate words are
> traditionally sued. And as you say, most people use only one word of
> each pair/set but will mostly understand the other ones, too.
> 
>>  This seldom impedes understanding,
>> even though it places some demand on passive
>> competence.
> 
> *nods* You'd have to have come across the non-local ones in order to
> recognise them.
> 
> I daresay that most Germans-from-Germany would be flummoxed by an
> Austrian talking about "Paradeiser", "Karfiol", "Marillen", or
> "Ribisl", and even "Jänner" and "Feber" would probably give them
> pause, for example; Austrian German simply isn't heard much in
> Germany.

The real problem arises when the same word means
different things in different dialects.  I got in
trouble once because _nog_ (Ger. _genug_, En.
_enough_) means 'surely, certainly' in Bohuslänska
and old-fashioned Gothenburgish but 'probably' in
standard Swedish: someone asked if I'd still be
there when she came back and I answered _det är
jag nog_ 'I certainly/probably am'! Such words
would have to be avoided entirely and replaced by
their alternatives in the respective dialects
(_troligen/säkert_ in my example).

/BP 8^)>
-- 
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
  à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
  ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
  c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

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July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
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June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 3

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