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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Recreating Pakuni language from on-screen examples

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:25:10 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (141 lines)

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Thomas Alexander<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I know it's not quite conlanger cool to blur
> the distinction between sounds and letters, so
> I'll do my best - although it's still my custom
> to talk about "the letter S" rather than "an
> unvoiced dental sibilant" or whatever they're
> calling them these days.

Se ni parolus en Esperanto, kaj parolus pri lingvo kiu havas ĝenerale
nur fonemoj kiuj ankaŭ troviĝas en Esperanto, ne estus la sama danĝero
de malklareco, kiel se ni parolus en la angla pri fonemoj dirante
"letters".  .... But in English, where the letter "s" can sometimes
represent /z/ as well as /s/ (though "z" almost always represents
/z/), using the word "letter" when you mean to talk about phonemes can
potentially cause confusion, especially when you might, elsewhere in
the same conversation, want to talk about writing as well as
pronunciation (as when you talked about how the word was spelling in
fan sites vs. official sources).  It's possible that there is some
"conlanger cool" going on as well, but I'll try to avoid it.

>> Is it clearly pronounced /ogansa/ in other
>> context by the same or other actors?  Or does
>> "ogan(s|z)a" only occur in that one phrase
>> throughout the show?
>
> The word is used in several contexts and I've
> only noted one example where the S is unvoiced.
> My impression is that it's only spelled wth a
> Z in certain fan web pages.  The official sources
> I've managed to dig up spell it with an S --
> which suggests to me that it was intended to be
> unvoiced.
>
>> > 1 - declare that the word really is
>> > pronounced with an unvoiced s.
>>
>> That would make sense if /ogansa/ is
>> attestested in other contexts.
>
> How about if in only one?
>
> I think it also depends on whether we imagine
> that we're creating a guide for people watching
> the original series, or a guide for the creation
> of Pakuni dialog in future works.

Partly, yes.  But even if creating a guide for future use of Pakuni,
I'd be inclined, if the evidence on paper about the conlang Dr.
Fromkin mean to create and the evidence from the show about the
language the fictional Pakuni speak are in conflict, to go with the
latter *if the latter is consistent within itself*.  It seems best
that a potential continuation of the show in whatever medium would
have a Pakuni language that's consistent with the Pakuni language as
attested in the original show.

So if the actors pronounce it /oganza/ on all but one occasion, or in
all contexts but one, then it seems that actors playing Pakuni in
future shows should probably be told to pronounce it /oganza/ as well.
 Whether new word coinages which have /n/ followed by a fricative in
the neighborhood of /s/ or /z/ should be pronounced with /nz/ or /ns/
is less clear, but I'd tend to go with the former based on everything
you've said.

Here:

>> > 2 - declare that "s" can be voiced or unvoiced.
>>
>> That might make sense; if Pakuni has only
>> phonemic /z/, then [z] is a plausible,
>> probable allophone of /s/.

I had a typo: I meant to say "...if Pakuni has only phonemic
/s/, then ...."

> I do like that idea - although it strikes me
> as odd that the allophone turns up in only one
> context.

Not necessarily odd...

>> > 3 - declare that "s" can be (or perhaps
>> > "always is") voiced after a nasal.
>>
>> Are there any other words where /s/ occurs in a
>> cluster with /n/, or anther voiced consonant?
>
> Possibly.  I thought of a possible example yesterday.
> The tyranosaur in the show is sometimes called "abobo"
> sometimes "akingo".  It's possible that "abobo" is a
> general word for dinosaur (since it's used to describe
> a brontosaurus), but some have suggested that "abobo"
> means tyranosaur and "akingo" is this tyranosaur's name.
> Since his name is "Grumpy" in English, "akingo" would
> mean "grumpy one" -- which would make "kingsa" an
> adjective meaning "grumpy."

Except that "kingsa" is not actually heard anywhere in the show's
dialogue, right?

In that case, if all the other known words with [s] in them have it at
the beginning or end of a word adjacent to a vowel, or between two
vowels, or clustered with an unvoiced consonant, then it's not
actually surprising that the only time [z] is heard is when it's
adjacent to /n/.

>> > 4 - introduce the letter Z to your Pakuni
>> > alphabet and respell the word "oganza" with a Z.
>>
>> The orthography is a separate issue
>
> I meant, introduce a the sound "z" to your Pakuni
> phonemic inventory and treat words pronounced with
> voiced vs unvoiced sibilants as distinct words.

OK.  No, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, based on everything
you've said.   But how the word is spelled in materials intended to
accurately represent the nature of the language itself, and how it's
spelled in dialogue intended to be given to actors who might or might
not have dialect coaches telling them that orthographic "s" is
pronounced [s] in these contexts and [z] in this context .... that's a
separate issue again.   I think there's been some mention in previous
threads about actors in some Star Trek episodes and/or films
mispronouncing Klingon dialogue based on a naive intepretation of its
romanization in terms of English orthography.

In general, I think Mark explained things a little better than I did:

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Mark J. Reed<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> [s] and [z] refer to the sounds made by Esperanto <s> and <z>, yes.
>
> /s/ and /z/ refer to sounds which are distinct from each other within
> some language under discussion, of which [s] and [z] are somehow
> representative.
>
> If Pakuni has only /s/ and no /z/, it might nevertheless have [z] as
> an allophone of /s/, much like Spanish.  So if [oganza] is the only
> example of a [z], and we have no instance of [ogansa] meaning
> something different, then it seems silly to postulate that Pakuni has
> a /z/ phoneme.

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