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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Recreating Pakuni language from on-screen examples

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Aug 2009 16:06:37 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (140 lines)

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>
> [s] and [z] refer to the sounds made by Esperanto
> <s> and <z>, yes.
>
> /s/ and /z/ refer to sounds which are distinct
> from each other within some language under
> discussion, of which [s] and [z] are somehow
> representative.

Okay, so now I'm confused.  I thought I'd be a good
newbie and follow along on the chart when I read your
note, but I find that the links from MYCONLANGLINKS.TK
which seem most promising are either 404 or don't
include the symbols you're using.

Reading through this and Jim Henry's reply, I'm
ready to guess that [s] indicates the actual sound
made, /s/ indicates a native speakers conception of
the sound which can vary in context with other sounds,
and <s> refers to the actual letter.

> If Pakuni has only /s/ and no /z/, it might
> nevertheless have [z] as an allophone of /s/,
> much like Spanish.  So if [oganza] is the only
> example of a [z], and we have no instance of
> [ogansa] meaning something different, then it
> seems silly to postulate that Pakuni has
> a /z/ phoneme.

Silly, yes, but only slightly so.  I could list several
examples where the pronunciation of CH and J are routinely
switched.  At one point, I was ready to rewrite my
dictionary with one letter to represent [ch] and [j]
(I hope I got they symbols right), but I couldn't because
there are words such as CHI and JI which are obviously
distinct in meaning.

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> But even if creating a guide for future use of Pakuni,
> I'd be inclined, if the evidence on paper about the
> conlang Dr. Fromkin mean to create and the evidence
> from the show about the language the fictional Pakuni
> speak are in conflict, to go with the latter *if the
> latter is consistent within itself*.

That sounds reasonable, and I think Lee's comment in
this thread backs it up.  It's nearly always pronounced
/oganza/, and indeed, this is one of the most memorable
words in the series.

> Whether new word coinages which have /n/ followed by
> a fricative in the neighborhood of /s/ or /z/ should
> be pronounced with /nz/ or /ns/ is less clear, but
> I'd tend to go with the former based on everything
> you've said.

Do you think it matters if the <s> (letter s) is
part of the root (as in -gansa) or an afix (such as
in the hypothetical *yumansa" - humanish - built
from "yuman" and "sa")?  In my mind it does.

> Except that "kingsa" is not actually heard 
> anywhere in the show's dialogue, right?

Right.  For that matter, it's not clear to me
how to treat the NG in akingo/kingsa.  It's
pronounced /ng/+/g/ in the show (if that makes
sense), but if it's based on the hypothetical
word *kingsa*, I expect that <ng> would represent
one sound.

> In that case, if all the other known words with
> [s] in them have it at the beginning or end of
> a word adjacent to a vowel, or between two
> vowels, or clustered with an unvoiced consonant,
> then it's not actually surprising that the only
> time [z] is heard is when it's adjacent to /n/.

No, but this strikes me as an imported rule.
(Imported by the actors from their native language).
It's a rule I can live with, of course, but
that wasn't the question.

> [H]ow the word is spelled in materials intended to
> accurately represent the nature of the language
> itself, and how it's spelled in dialogue intended
> to be given to actors who might or might not have
> dialect coaches telling them that orthographic "s"
> is pronounced [s] in these contexts and [z] in this
> context .... that's a separate issue again.

I hadn't considered that.  Of course, since the
Pakuni are never seen writing, I think it's
generally assumed that they don't have a native
writing system.  (They do seem to understand what
writing is, though, but that's another point.)

While corresponding with another person interested
in Pakuni, I saw in his notes that [using Esperanto
spelling rules here] CXI is sometimes mispronounced
KAJ.  My notes contained the words <chi> and <ka>
with the same meaning, but how CHI could becoem KAJ
was not at all clear, so I didn't believe it at first.
Then I realised that <CHI> and /kai/ are ways of
spelling and pronouncing the name of the Greek
letter X in certain parts of the world where the
actors (or their coaches) could have drawn their
influence.

> In general, I think Mark explained things a
> little better than I did:

[snip quote from Mark, already inlcluded above.]

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't start to
understand Mark's note till I started working my
way through yours.


Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>
> Anyway, the question is whether or not a Paku
> speaker would hear "oganza" and "ogansa" as
> the same word or two different words.

I'm inclined to agree with you that the
evidence seems to be in favor of the same...
but considering that the expressions "me ji"
and "meche" are at times pronounced the same
yet perceived as different has dulled my
confidence a little.  :-)

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---


      

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