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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Recreating Pakuni language from on-screen examples

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:47:55 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Thomas Alexander<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Okay, so now I'm confused.

Sorry.

> Reading through this and Jim Henry's reply, I'm
> ready to guess that [s] indicates the actual sound
> made, /s/ indicates a native speakers conception of
> the sound which can vary in context with other sounds,
> and <s> refers to the actual letter.

Right on all counts.  The slashes in /s/ mean that it is a "phoneme".
Speech consists of lots of different sounds, but not all the
differences affect what the native speakers hear; the ones that are
are said to be "phonemic".  Different types of sound changes are
phonemic in different languages; Anglophones hear the [p_h] in "pin"
and the [p] as in "spin" as "the same sound", so we say that English
has one phoneme /p/ that occurs in both words. To a Hindi speaker, the
two sounds are quite distinct, and Hindi has both /p/ and /p_h/
phonemes.  Japanese, on the other hand, has one phoneme /t/ that
usually sounds like English [t] but sometimes (before the vowel [i])
sounds like [tS] (English "ch").

Different realizations of the same phoneme (like [p] and [p_h] in
English, or [t] and [tS] in Japanese) are called "allophones" of that
phoneme.

It's usual to use <...> to refer to orthographic representations, but
since that confuses some HTML-based mailers, |...| is also used.

>  I could list several examples where the pronunciation of CH and J are routinely
> switched.
That happens in English, too, really;  we just adjust what we hear
based on expectations.  Clearly, /tS/ and /dZ/ ("ch" and "j"- be
careful here; /j/ in IPA/CXS refers to the English "y" sound) are
distinct phonemes in English, as indicated by lots of "minimal pairs"
- pairs where that's the only difference: "choose" vs "Jews", "batch"
vs "badge",etc. But the difference between them is not always very
clear in actual connected speech.

> At one point, I was ready to rewrite my  dictionary with one letter to represent [ch] and [j]
> (I hope I got they symbols right), but I couldn't because
> there are words such as CHI and JI which are obviously
> distinct in meaning.

So "chi" and "ji" constitute a minimal pair indicating that "ch" and
"j" (/tS/ and /dZ/) are distinct phonemes.


>> Whether new word coinages which have /n/ followed by
>> a fricative in the neighborhood of /s/ or /z/ should
>> be pronounced with /nz/ or /ns/ is less clear, but
>> I'd tend to go with the former based on everything
>> you've said.
>
> Do you think it matters if the <s> (letter s) is
> part of the root (as in -gansa) or an afix (such as
> in the hypothetical *yumansa" - humanish - built
> from "yuman" and "sa")?  In my mind it does.

Phonetic effects like this are not usually governed by morphosyntactic
considerations - the /s/ will be voiced in the vicinity of voiced
sounds, unvoiced otherwise, regardless of how the word splits into
morphemes.  But there are exceptions, so it could go either way; I'd
base the analysis on how things actually sound on the show.

> Right.  For that matter, it's not clear to me
> how to treat the NG in akingo/kingsa.  It's
> pronounced /ng/+/g/ in the show (if that makes
> sense), but if it's based on the hypothetical
> word *kingsa*, I expect that <ng> would represent
> one sound.

The "ng" in English "sing" is a single sound (spelled /N/ in CXS, /ŋ/
in the IPA), while the "ng" in English "finger" is two sounds, /N/
followed by /g/.

So if <akingo> is [@kiNgo], the question is whether <kingsa> would be
[kiNsa], [kiNza], [kiNgsa], or [kiNgza].   I'd guess that /ŋ/ would be
just [N] when followed by a consonant, [Ng] when followed by a vowel.
 It's likely that if [n] triggers voicing of /s/ to [z], then so would
[N] (and [m] for that matter), but not necessarily.


> While corresponding with another person interested
> in Pakuni, I saw in his notes that [using Esperanto
> spelling rules here] CXI is sometimes mispronounced
> KAJ.

Both of those are English pronunciations of the written word <chi>; in
fact, both pronunciations exist in English with separate meanings.
The Greek letter is usually /kaj/ (for Americans, anyway), while the
spiritual essence is usually /tSi/ (a close Anglicization of the
Mandarin).

-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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