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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Common Romansh spelling (was Re: Venetian Grammar online)

From:

Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2009 23:10:15 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (172 lines)

Philip Newton skrev:
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 23:12, Benct Philip Jonsson<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Philip Newton skrev:
>>> 2009/8/4 Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>:
>>>> The use of diaphonic spellings (p. 5/4) is
>>>> facinating.  I think Rumantsch Grischun
>>>> would have fared better if it had adopted
>>>> something similar.
>>> It's hard to say; apparently, the political situation was
>>> "interesting", to say the least, and that this meant some compromises
>>> linguistically.
>>>
>>> (ISTR reading that the linguist who drew up RG would much rather have
>>> taken an existing dialect, say Surmiran - which is geographically in
>>> the centre, and has some features of both western and eastern dialects
>>> -, and promoted that as a standard written language, but realised that
>>> that would have been a complete non-starter, so he drew up the
>>> existing compromise instead.)
>> *I* would definitely go about such a thing
>> by making as extensive use of diaphonic
>> graphies as necessary to allow anyone to
>> read out the written form in their own
>> dialect guided by letter-to-sound rules
>> which are as context-free as possible[^1].
>> I'm definitely *not* in favor of glorifying
>> one dialect over the others in a dialect
>> continuum: that inevitably spells the death
>> of the other dialects -- we know that since
>> that is how standardization has been
>> effected in most European countries.
>> Where are Low German and Provençal now?
>>
>> [^1]: e.g. _ü, ö, ä_ if/where some dialects
>> have /u o a/ and others have /y 2 E/,
>> _ï, ë_ where some have /y 2/ and some
>> have /i e/, _lh_ for /l/~/L/,
>> _ch_ for /k/~/ts\/, _gh_ for /g/~/dz\/,
>> _kh_ for /x/ and _ke, ki_
>> for /ke ki/, and also _sh_ for /Z/
>> beside _sch_ for /S/, to make it easier
>> for 'revivalist' learners.

Rather

_c'_ = /k/~/ts\/ (or _ć_)
_g'_ = /g/~/dz\/ (or _ǵ_)
_ch_ = /x/
_ke ki_ = /ke ki/
_ghe ghi_ = /ge gi/

Forgot that the last is necessary...

> And perhaps _à_ for /a/~/au/? (ISTR that Sutsilvan, already a
> compromise orthography using "diaphonic graphies", as you call them,
> uses this character for this purpose already.)

To judge by <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language#Lexis>
there are several vowel diaphones which would need their 
respective spellings.  My impulse would be to use diacritics,
e.g. _êgl_ for OCULUS, _rôda_ for ROTA, _fûrma_ for FORMA,
_tůt_ for TOTUS, _c'åmba_ for CAMBA, but also digraphs and
trigraphs like _träis_ for TRES, _eà_ for EGO.

Do you know what Sutsilvan _ea_ stands for?  I wonder how
one might capture the _e ~ ea ~ ei_ variation of LEVIS?
Perhaps _leev_!

<fret>I wish I could get my hands on more relevant info;
I'm in the wrong nook of the woods...</fret>

As for the famous _*ei_ > _ek/eg_ change it could perhaps be 
written _eh_.

> A separate letter for /z/ would also be useful; currently, _s_ is
> ambiguous between /s/ and /z/. (Well, it can also stand for /S/, but I
> think only in positions where /s/ is not possible, and that
> environments where both can occur explicitly use _sch_ in RG.)

/s/ vs. /z/ is a tough one. Perhaps _ś_ for /z/, even though
the acute would mean something different from _ć ǵ_?
However since "stressed vowels in open syllables are short before 
voiceless consonants, long elsewhere" perhaps one could use _ss_
for /s/ if there are no actual /s/--/s:/ or /z/--/z:/ contrasts.

> Any other suggestions?
> 
> One result of such a system is that it will be harder to write, since
> for those who merge/don't split certain phonemes they will have to
> know which one corresponds to a given sound in a dialect that
> splits/doesn't merge them.

Not harder than present English of French spelling
is for everybody, even apart from such things as
postvocalic _r_ and the LOT-FATHER-THOUGHT distinction
which are arguably diaphonic.  I think people would
generally be more tolerant towards multiple spellings
per sound if they know that they serve a diaphonic
purpose rather than being purely arbitrary/historical
like most such cases in English and French.

> But if the main purpose of the orthography is to be read, not written
> (that only comparatively few people, e.g. cantonal/federal civil
> servants or authors of school texts, are expected to write it), it may
> be worth it.

It is not necessary to demand that everybody
honors all diaphonic spellings in private handwriting.
In this day and age there is spellchecking, and
the number of potential homophones is unlikely to
be unreasonably great.

>> I'm definitely *not* in favor of glorifying
>> one dialect over the others in a dialect
>> continuum
> 
> How are you going to handle differences in vocabulary and syntax?
> Allow all possibilities (cf. RG's use of both western _mo_ and eastern
> _be_ for "only")? 

Yes, why not?  Any language has vocabulary,
morphology and/or
syntax which not every speaker uses, or variants
which are unevenly spread across the speaker/writer
community.  This seldom impedes understanding,
even though it places some demand on passive
competence.  Again exalting some variants as
'standard' and others as 'substandard' will
only create social antagonism and bad confidence
without any real gains for communication.
IME of the mainland Scandinavian languages there is a point where
mutual comprehensibility between cognate but diverging
varieties breaks down, but where
the line goes -- how much and what parts of the language system
can differ -- is subjective, variable and largely
a matter of social attitudes rather than
mechanics of communication.

> If not, you'll have to pick a specific dialect (or
> group of dialects) as a source anyway.
> 
> Though I suppose you could go about that the RG way again: for
> vocabulary, pick what the majority uses (with Surmiran used as a
> tie-breaker?); for syntax, use the lowest common denominator (e.g. no
> synthetic future) and/or the majority rule (e.g. no _a_ before animate
> objects as in Ladin) and/or a compromise (e.g. "na ... betg" from
> western "... buc(a)", eastern "nu ...", and central "n- ... b-"[^2]).
> 
> [^2] I don't remember the exact words used.

For oral communication you will anyway have to
acquire a passive competence in the linguistic patterns
of varieties other than your own.  If the written
language tekes hold and cross-dialectal communication
flourishes you will probably get a greater or lesser
degree of koineization sooner or later, but I see no
reason to shoehorn it artificially; it may pretty
well be that the future koine seizes upon some
minority feature for some reason(s) or other(s).

Phew!  Hope this makes sense.  I've spent most of this
afternoon and evening trying to get cusp and wine to work
again after the former mysteriously broke.

/BP 8^)>
-- 
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch atte melroch dotte se
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  "C'est en vain que nos Josués littéraires crient
  à la langue de s'arrêter; les langues ni le soleil
  ne s'arrêtent plus. Le jour où elles se *fixent*,
  c'est qu'elles meurent."           (Victor Hugo)

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February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
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August 2003, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 2
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April 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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