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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 1

CONLANG August 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: A spoken-only conlang

From:

Lee <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:59:17 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

--- On Tue, 8/4/09, Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


> Lee <[log in to unmask]>
> > If your are talking phonemes, words, grammar, etc.
> > I suspect that a person doesn't have to learn
> > anything at all about a language in order to learn
> it.
> 
> For one, my college German professor would disagree with
> you.  He said this explicitly.  He explained that
> his
> was a practical communications course, but that a formal
> study of grammar was necessary for practical
> communication.
> He invited anybody who knew of a way to teach practical
> communication without teaching gramamar to come forward.
> Certainly none of the students in the class ever had one.
> 
> I've had hours of experience with the Pimsleur method.
> This tends to be light on grammar, but even it is not
> grammar free.  It's very effective, but it can only
> take
> you so far.

But you are talking about an academic setting, whereas I am thinking of completely non-academic situations.

Non academically, what would be the most efficient way for two people who don't know each other's language to figure out how to effectively communicate with each other? Probably start with nouns. Point to self, and provide the name. Point to various objects in and features of the environment and provide the word for each. Extend that to the names of actions, facial expressions, emotions, times of day, etc.

Granted, it may take long time for proper grammar to be transmitted, and in fact, it's likely much of it may never be. Still, more than enough will have been taught and learned to provide for effective and practical communication.

Perhaps it all boils down to what an individual considers practical and effective communication.

> 
> It is true that most people learn their L1 without
> reference to grammar, but the situation for L2 learning
> (or conlang creation) is different.  First, you
> already
> know one language and can use it to help you learn about
> the next one.

Definitely. Everything a person learns is with the aid of what the person already knows, by looking for recognizable features in as of yet unknown material.

>  Second, you have a more mature mind
> which
> can approach the topic in a different way to match up
> with different communication needs.  Third, for
> whatever
> reason, adults tend to find the experience of studying
> an L2 to be more like learning and less like acquisition.

I assume that is because the teaching and learning of secondary languages is almost always treated as an academic exercise.

It has been so ingrained in our heads ever since elementary school that the best way to learn a second language is use a bottom-up, details first (phonemes, morphemes, words, grammar, etc.) approach that we typically don't think to consider there might be an equally effective different approach.

> If I read that Fromkin included homorganic nasals in
> Pakuni, it becomes necessary for me to find out what
> homorganic nasals are, so that I can be sure that my
> re-creation (or description) of the language is accurate.
> Knowing what she meant by this might help me sort out
> ambiguous or unclear examples, and/or correct errors
> in pronuciation made by the actors.  To this extent,
> it's helpful to know something about linguistics to
> reach a conlanger's end.

But Pakuni is a special case, as it is with all but a very, very few conlangs. It is highly unlikely you will ever encounter a native Pakuni speaker, and the vast majority of anything Pakuni is written from a non-native technical description of the language.

> 
> > Less directly, somewhere I've got a book written
> > by a man telling his story on how he learned the
> > variety of languages he's picked up over the years.
> > (Sorry, I don't remember the author's name nor the
> > book's title. I'll have to engage in an archeological
> > expedition to find it.)
> 
> From the description, my first guess is that you're
> talking about Barry Farber's "How to Learn Any Language."
> 
> > His basic method was ignore all the "traditional"
> > language program methods. Instead, find a native
> > speaker and ask if they will teach conversational
> > phrases, and/or find a newspaper or other written
> > material and use a English-target language dictionary
> > to learn words, phrases, and idioms as they are used
> > in context.
> 
> If you're indeed talking about Farber, I would summarise
> it differently.  His method is -- take every
> opportunity
> to study, study, study.  This does include learning
> set
> phrases from native speakers, reading articles in news
> papers right from the start, making your own audio tapes,
> but also includes learning vocabulary from flash cards
> and <gasp> learning grammar.

Sounds like the same book, and I think we are saying much the same thing. Said a different way, the approach I remember him advocating was not specifically grammar based. Rather it is copy the natives with enough word memorization to aid in the copying.

I'll have to dig it up sometime, give it another read, and see how my impression changes.

Lee


      

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