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AUXLANG  August 2009, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: with a little help from my friends...

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 Aug 2009 15:01:54 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (80 lines)

2009/8/20 Olivier Simon <[log in to unmask]>:

> But, despite my explanations, this Esperantist finds my choices "subjective"
> and thinks that Esperanto is better because based on a consensus. (see the

I'm not quite sure what he means by that, but I can readily see a
sense in which what he's saying makes sense: all the words in E-o that
weren't coined by Zamenhof himself before 1887 are ones that somebody
(possibly Zamenhof himself in the period 1887-1917, usually somebody
else) proposed, and then a large subset of other Esperanto speakers
liked the form of and continued using.  I.e., any word that became
part of the living language and not just a nonce-neologism is one that
found a consensus in favor of its usage.  The same is true of
grammatical and semantic structures that have emerged since 1887, and
arguably of the basic pre-1887 core of the language too, in another
sense.


> Now, I really wonder what to answer to him since his criticisms are not
> supported by any example and it's hard to see what is better in Esperanto
> (... ).

I can think of two major things that are better in Esperanto
(phonology and orthography) than in Sambahsa, but your correspondent
doesn't mention them.   He seems, as best as I can understand him
without knowing the context of the earlier conversation, to be arguing
pragmatically: that Esperanto has a million-odd speakers, that such a
speaker community shouldn't be discarded in favor of a new language
unless the new language is unambiguously much better than E-o, and
that Sambahsa is not such an unambiguous improvement as to justify
dropping Esperanto and supporting Sambahsa.


> Ce qui me gêne, c'est que vous pondérez (dans votre message)les différentes
> aires linguistiques par des critères subjectifs. Or cette subjectivité ne peut
> que se heurter à d'autres subjectivités s'appuyant sur des critères différents.

Je pense qu'il a raison; tous les hommes qui veulent une langue
auxiliaire ont des critères différents pour juger d'une langue
proposée.  Vous et moi voyons des problèmes dans l'ésperanto, mais pas
des mêmes problèmes.  Donc nos langues auxiliaires idéales sont bien
differents.


> Si on se restreint à l'Union Européenne - qui est l'objet du forum - ,

Dans quel forum se passe ce dèbat?


> Mais le point le plus important pour moi est cette idée de Zamenhof de faire
> passer le consensus avant l'optimalité de la langue de communication, sous
> peine de retomber dans le babélisme, et j'aimerais avoir votre opinion sur ce

Je ne suis pas certain de ce qu'il veut dire, mais voici mon idée:
l'ésperanto ayant une fois gagné des milliers (ou même millions) des
adeptes, il faut mieux conserver l'integrité de cet communauté avant
que de changer la langue, ou substituer une autre langue, même si cet
langue est mieux (aux points de vues de quelqu'uns).

S'il pensent tellement, je ne dirait point qu'il a tort.

> point précis. Je le répète, je ne défends pas une opposition de principe à toute
> réforme ou à tout choix autre que l'espéranto, mais je pose comme préalable
> que le niveau de consensus ne doit pas diminuer.

> En pratique, cela veut dire que s'il y a, par exemple, un million d'espérantistes,
> il faut avoir des garanties que la nouvelle langue soit capable d'en attirer
> davantage.

Il a raison: si une nouvelle langue auxiliaire ne peut pas alloger
plus des adepts qu'ésperanto, à quoi la proposer?

> Varmege en Bordozo kiel en Loreno (?).

Varmegas ankaŭ en norda Georgio.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

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