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AUXLANG  August 2009, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: with a little help from my friends...

From:

"<deinx nxtxr>" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:09:24 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

Olivier Simon wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:37:03 -0400, <deinx nxtxr> 
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Jens Wilkinson wrote:
>>> 2009/8/21 Olivier Simon <[log in to unmask]>:
>>>> Now, I really wonder what to answer to him since his criticisms are not
>>>> supported by any example and it's hard to see what is better in Esperanto
>>>> (... ).
>>> I'm not sure, but I'd want to ask what you are hoping to achieve. Are
>>> you hoping to switch the friend from Esperanto to Sambahsa? If so, I
>>> think you are facing a very difficult task. People tend to get
>>> committed to the things they have learned, and don't want to go on to
>>> something new. I suppose you could try to argue that Sambahsa is much
>>> better than Esperanto, but I don't think it would be very easy to make
>>> that argument. I think that honestly speaking (and I'm not a speaker
>>> of Esperanto myself), Esperanto isn't that bad.
>> Aesthetically Sambahsa seems like a pretty language from what I've
>> seen of it so far whereas I've always found Esperanto to be kind of
>> repulsive but those are subjective.  On the practical side of things
>> I would have to honestly say Sambahsa is just too difficult to be a
>> serious IAL/WAL contender, especially where the phonology and
>> orthography are concerned.  Esperanto is just so much simpler that
>> it's better suited to auxlang usage.  IMHO Sambahsa would be best
>> promoted and used for its own benefit as an artlang, especially with
>> all the content that's been created.
> 
> 
> Sellamat Dana ! 
> 
> Indeed you're not the only one to say this. Some 20 years ago, when, of 
> course, I was not involved in the conlang movement, the first sight of a text 
> in Esperanto acted on me as a repulsive too; I still remember it: 

It's no so much visual as the way the language sounds.

I started my first conlang back in the early '80s sometime.  I never 
really became very well developed but I did have a small lexicon 
stored in a database and a rough idea for a grammar.  Essentially I 
had a relexed E-o with more of a Low-Germanic vocabulary base, but 
it was supposed to be an auxlang.  I'll be posting a reconstruction 
of this language soon just for the sake of documenting it.  After a 
search through my old 5.25" floppies, I couldn't find anything left 
from my old linguistic tinkerings so it will have to be based upon 
what I can remember.  From what I do remember is that it really 
wasn't a very good auxlang.  I actually expanded the phonology of 
E-o to include phonemes like /θ ð ø y æ / rather than making it more 
accomodating by reducing the phonology.  This meant having a lot of 
non-ASCII letters in the alphabet like <æ ð œ š þ ž> so 
machinability was just as big of a problem (well, maybe slightly 
less because I at least used symbols that were already known to 
exist in other languages though I don't know of a single 8-bit 
codepage that had all of them).  Anyway, despite its unsuitabily as 
an auxlang, I did actually like a lot of things I did with this 
early language so it sort of became the starting point for the 
creation of Deini.


> En la lazur' kiel enigma sfinkso mi tronas
> Kunigas koron negxan kun brila blank' de cigno
> Linio-rompan movon malamas mia digno
> Nek larmo de mi gutas, nek rido de mi sonas
> 
> (from Baudelaire "les fleurs du mal"). 
> At that time, no other conlang was known to me and I remained a supporter 
> of Latin !
> 
> Sambahsa's orthography is more complicated than the ones of Esperanto or 
> Sasxsek, but is this regular system more difficult than the ones of natlangs 
> learnt worldwide by thousands of millions of people (let's mention at least 
> English whose orthographical and phonetical mess has not prevented it from 
> becoming nowaydays' world language)? 

The power of English has nothing to do with its features. It's 
popular inspite of its many drawbacks, mainly because it has a large 
and influential user base.  You have to realize that even a lot of 
L1 users have trouble with English orthography.  It is a very 
serious problem, one that becomes more complicated for students. 
The time wasted on that alone adds considerably to learning time. 
French spelling is a mess too, but at least it's regular enough that 
one knows how to pronounce a word at sight.  E-o's phonology is a 
little bit bloated but at least it has a perfectly consistent 
orthography to match it.

None of the planned languages have the influence of English.   For 
most all they have going for them is the fact that they are designed 
to easy to learn and in most cases that's true when compared to 
similar natlangs.  If anyone ever expect their languages to be 
learned by anyone then they need to be as easy as possible, yet 
still fully functional.


> Your remark about auxlang/artlang is interesting. I just wonder is there really a 
> limit between auxlang and artlang ? (an idea for a new thread !) On the 
> contrary to most artlangs, Sambahsa is not based on a fantasy world (or on 
> an historical fantasy). 

An artlang doesn't have to be based on any fantasy world.  It could 
just be that the language design stands on its own as a creative work.

Auxlangs too live in some sort of fantasy world, the fantasy of a 
future where everyone is using them instead of English or some other 
natlang.

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