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CONLANG  August 2009, Week 4

CONLANG August 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A posteriori conlangs

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 22 Aug 2009 16:30:11 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

Hallo!

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 06:54:40 +0100, R A Brown wrote:

> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [...]
> > Why?  Did intervocalic /f/ go to /v/ in French?  AFAIK, not!
> 
> No need for the exclamation mark. That no instances of [f] 
> --> [v] are attested in Old French is simply because 
> intervocalic [f] did *not occur* in Vulgar Latin. 
> Intervocalic /f/ is rare in Classical Latin, occurring in no 
> native Latin words but only in a few borrowings.

Indeed.  When I tried to find examples, I realized that there weren't
any because of the phonological history of Latin.  Latin /f/ is from
various voiced aspirates, but those developed to /f/ only in initial
position - intervocalic voiced aspirates became voiced stops.  Hence,
no intervocalic /f/ in native Latin words (as opposed to Sabellic,
where intervocalic voiced aspirates also became /f/).

> What Old French would have done with intervocalic [f] is a 
> moot point. But -
> (a) intervocalic [s] did shift to [z] (tho whether we should 
> give /z/ phonemic status is questionable);
> (b) lenition of plosives is well attested:
>    [p] --> [b] --> [v]
>    [b] --> [v]
>    [t] --> [d] --> [D] --> zero
>    [d] --> [D] --> zero
>    [k] --> [g] --> [G] --> zero
>    [g] --> [G] --> zero

Sure.

> in view of the clear evidence for lenition of plosives and 
> of the only attested intervocalic fricative, I think it is 
> not unreasonable to supposed that if intervocalic [f] 
> occurred, it would have undergone similar lenition.

Yes.  If /s/ is voiced in intervocalic position, and voiceless stops
are also voiced there, why not /f/, /T/ and /x/?

> > I only know this from Middle
> > English, which is of course an entirely different language ;)
> 
> Yes, I am aware the Middle English and Old French are 
> different languages.

Of course.

>       But if we are dealing with an unknown  
> situation, it does not seem unreasonable to me to look 
> around at vaguely parallel situations that did actually 
> occur. What I am suggesting is something that might have 
> occurred in certain dialect forms of a 'north Gallic 
> Helleniclang.' In view of the actual change of [aw] to [af], 
> and [ew] to [ef] in syllable final positions before 
> voiceless sounds, I don't think it unreasonable to suggest 
> that the following might have happened after back vowels 
> and, before voiceless sounds: [x] --> [G] --> [w] --> [f]
> 
> But it was only a suggestion. We simply have no way of being 
> sure how syllable final [x] would have developed.

Indeed.

> > > [Development of Greek /y(:)/]
> > Possible, but I see no reason why /y/ should not unround to
> > /i/ before /u:/ (< ου) becomes /y/.  When did /y/ unround in
> > Greek?
> 
> We cannot be certain. There's some indication of the change 
> as early as 2nd/3rd cent CE in Egypt, but no indication that 
> this was normal. In fact it seems that [y(:)] was still the 
> general pronunciation in the early Byzantine period.

I didn't know that; in light of this, one would not expect /y(:)/
to unround early in Gallo-Hellenic.

> Whether Greek /y/ and /y:/ became unrounded or not, the 
> clear evidence of Vulgar Latin & Proto-French is that /y/ 
> and /y:/ would have developed differently    ;)

Sure.

> > Yep - diachronic conlanging is fun!
> 
> Yep - and this sort of set up, "applying French sound 
> changes to a Greek base", there are other problems. One 
> obvious one is that Greek had (and still has) a whole range 
> of initial consonant combinations  which were simply not 
> found in Latin or Proto-French      :)

Yes.  Whenever one tries to apply the sound changes of language X
to language Y, one almost always meets some problems of this sort
because the languages have different phonologies and you thus get
rules that have nothing to operate on and phonemes whose development
is not accounted for by any rule.  This means that you must be
creative, and there is no single obvious "correct" solution.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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