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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  August 2009, Week 4

CONLANG August 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A posteriori conlangs

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 22 Aug 2009 22:18:30 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (56 lines)

Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2009, at 12:54 AM, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> No need for the exclamation mark. That no instances of [f] --> [v] are 
>> attested in Old French is simply because intervocalic [f] did *not 
>> occur* in Vulgar Latin. Intervocalic /f/ is rare in Classical Latin, 
>> occurring in no native Latin words but only in a few borrowings.
> 
> If _Étienne_ < _STEPHANUS_ is any indication, and _PH_ was /f/ by that 
> period, perhaps it became zero.
> 
Interesting. In Old French it appears as _Estefne_, Estiéne, 
_Estienne_. The _e_ in Stephanus was short (indeed, all the 
vowels were) and we'd expect stressed /e/ to become /E/ in 
Old French in _blocked_ syllables, but to become /je/ in 
unblocked syllables; so _Estefne_ would appear to come from 
  a syncopated Vulgar Latin *estefnu. But Estie(n)ne 
suggests a development: *estefanu --> *estjev@n --> estje@n 
--> estien. The form with -nne- may well have arisen from a 
conflation of Estefne and Estiéne (in a similar way, e.g. 
that _sommes_ "are" is a conflation of the older competing 
forms _sons_ and _emmes_). But there are still problems with 
the name. Why did that final -e persists in Estiéne?(Or has 
my Old French glossary made a mistake? I would have expect 
_Estien_. I can quite well see final /@/ would have remained 
in Estefne and can well believe that Estienne could have 
arisen from a conflation of Estefne and Estien).
_____________________________________________________________

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[snip]
 > Yes.  Whenever one tries to apply the sound changes of 
language X
 > to language Y, one almost always meets some problems of 
this sort
 > because the languages have different phonologies and you 
thus get
 > rules that have nothing to operate on and phonemes whose 
development
 > is not accounted for by any rule.  This means that you 
must be
 > creative, and there is no single obvious "correct" solution.

Indeed, there is not; and in this case much will depend upon 
the alternative history setting in which this language 
developed.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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