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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  August 2009, Week 4

CONLANG August 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Right name for Atheism

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:51:34 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

Paul Hartzer wrote:
>> From: R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> A non-theist
>>  might be a deist, a pantheist or a polytheist. It does
>>  not have the same meaning as _atheist_.
> 
> How is a deist,

Unless I am very much mistaken, the "deist" was coined
precisely to distinguish 'theism' from 'deism'. Therefore,
it is IMO muddying the waters somewhat to say that 'deism'
is not different from 'theism', but only a subset of it.

> a pantheist, or a polytheist not a theist? A theist is
> someone who believes in some sort of sentient deity or
> deities;

It occurred to me after writing this that someone might
question my exclusion of pantheist & polytheist - but I
thought I'd just wait and see      :)

If one uses the term 'theist' in a very broad sense to mean
one who believes in a transcendental 'out-there' (supreme?) 
entity, then I guess deists and all the others are 
'theists'.  But I was using the term as IME it is commonly 
used to-day to mean a belief in a personal God who is active 
in the governance and organization of the world and the 
universe.

AIUI pantheism regards the physical universe as the same as 
God or gods; whether such a deity can be described as 
'sentient' is, i think, a matter of debate. Certainly such a 
belief cannot be equated with 'theism' in the sense in which 
I am more familiar.

> all of those groups believe in one or more
> sentient deities.I've had multiple conversations with
> polytheists who freely identify as theist.

I am aware there are different polytheistic beliefs. As a 
one-time classicist, the variety I am most familiar with is 
the polytheism of the ancient Greeks and Romans. I have 
earlier pointed out that by ancient usage, the early 
Christians were charged with being _atheoi_ - but we would 
not readily term Christians as 'atheists' now    ;)

Although the gods & goddesses of these ancient cultures were 
certainly conceived of as personal and capable of 
interfering in the governance of the world, they were not 
supreme beings. Altho immortal in the sense of 'undying', 
they did have a beginning, i.e. in the strictest sense of 
the world they were creatures. None of them exercised 
omnipotence by any stretch of the imagination.

In modern use, 'theism' normally implies IME a belief in a 
supreme eternal deity upon whom/which all being depends - 
the polytheism of the ancients certainly did not meet that 
definition.

As I said above, I am aware there are other belief systems 
that may term themselves 'polytheist' and it is possible be 
that some regard their beliefs as a variety of theism.

Basically, it seems clear to me that both _god_ and _theism_ 
do not have single clear definitions. Therefore, the term 
non-theist also must have multiple meaning. Certainly 
(despite Wikipedia!) I do not understand by non-theist the 
same as I understand by _atheist_ (tho, of course, atheists 
are one of the many non-theist groups).
________________________________________________________

Jim Henry wrote:
[snip]
 >
 > I wonder if that could be related to the fact that the 
"a-" negative
 > prefix in English is not very productive (it's mostly 
found only in
 > words of Greek origin, and a few modern neologisms using 
Greek roots),
 > while "non-" is far more productive?

Yes, I think this is right. The prefix non- is readily 
understood by practically everyone; but the prefix a- is not.

I recall many years ago in my late teens or early twenties 
talking about the asexual reproduction of some organism or 
other (I don't remember what now), and noticing that one of 
our group was getting more confused. It transpired that he 
was 'hearing' _asexual_ as _a sexual_ - i.e. the 
alpha-privative was taken as the indefinite article   ;)
_______________________________________________________

As Dxinx has pointed, there are different varieties of 
'atheism'; likewise, there different varieties of 'theism' 
and, indeed, different meanings attaching to the word 
_god(s)_. Nor does the question "What is the right name for 
Atheism?" have much meaning for me. In what sense can there 
be a *right* name - unless one believe in some sort of 
Platonic state in which all concepts exist in their pure 
form with their correct names.

To have a meaningful discussion one needs surely to define 
carefully the terms one is using so we all know what we are 
talking about. But this IMO is a topic way off the purpose 
of this list.

Personally, I think the thread has served its original 
purpose and, indeed, gone beyond it and, having said my 
piece, I'm opting out before we stray too far into NCNC 
territory.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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