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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  September 2009, Week 1

CONLANG September 2009, Week 1

Subject:

Re: "Naturalistic" for auxlangers vs artlangers?

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 1 Sep 2009 21:54:53 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

Hallo!

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:34:07 -0400, Alex Fink wrote:

> [...]
> >I think we are dealing with two entirely separate and unrelated
> >usages of the adjective "naturalistic" here.  
> 
> I think I'm more inclined to take the 'context' perspective.  For an
> artlanger, something is natural if it _might have_ come to exist in a human
> speaker community; for an auxlanger, something is natural if by chance it
> _actually happened to_.  In each case the scope of "natural" is the set of
> languages the respective glossopoets are interested in matching.  

Both usages (or, if you prefer, contexts) use natural languages as
point of reference, but in very different ways, and I don't think
the artlangers have borrowed their term from the auxlangers.

The auxlangers' definition of "naturalistic", as I wrote on Sunday,
refers to how much of an auxlang is made up from scratch and how much
is borrowed from source languages, as in the following table (use
monospaced font):

Language type    Roots     Words     Grammar   Example
-----------------------------------------------------------
A priori         Made up   Made up   Made up   Ars signorum
Schematic        Borrowed  Made up   Made up   Esperanto
Naturalistic     Borrowed  Borrowed  Made up   Occidental
-----------------------------------------------------------

(A language in which all three are borrowed would not be an artificial
language at all, at least not by the standards used by auxlangers.)

In auxlang circles, "made up" usually equals "schematically regular"
as artificial irregularity is considered unjustifiable; most a priori
auxlangs therefore have taxonomic vocabularies, and the terms "a priori
language" and "philosophical language" are used interchangingly.

If you apply this scheme to artlangs, you will have many naturalistic
artlangs ending up in the "a priori" category.  Quenya, for instance,
certainly is a priori in the classification above (putting aside that
it contains "unjustifiable" artificial irregularity).  Yet, in the
meaning of the term used by artlangers, it is clearly a naturalistic
language!

--------

In the AUXLANG mailing list, Jim Henry wrote:

> "Schematic/naturalistic" is a contrast that makes sense both for
> artlangs and auxlangs, but the specific way the terms are defined in
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructed_language is biased a little
> too much toward auxlangs.   A priori artlangs can be schematic (i.e.
> more or less engelangy, like my gj-zym-byn) or naturalistic (closely
> imitating the general properties of naturally-evolved languages).

Indeed, they can, as can a posteriori artlangs, of course.

> When auxlangers use the terms, they basically signify lesser and
> greater degrees of a-posterioricity; schematic languages like
> Esperanto take their root vocabulary from natlangs but are less picky
> about making the orthography look exactly like the source natlang,
> aren't at all picky about making compounds look like any source
> natlang, and tend to have some a priori elements among the affixes,
> inflectional endings and particles.  Naturalistic languages like
> Interlingua not only take their root vocabulary from natlangs but
> their affixes and inflections as well, and generally try to make
> compounds look like some natlang word as well, sacrificing consistency
> and regularity to attain stronger resemblance to the source natlangs.

Exactly that is what auxlangers mean by "naturalistic".  It has been
remarked, I forgot by whom, that most "naturalistic" auxlangs come
close to being Romance languages as they are mostly based on Latinate
internationalisms.  But in principle, a "naturalistic" auxlang can
be based on the vocabulary of just about any natural language.

> But even the most "naturalistic" auxlangs like Interlingua, Occidental
> and Sambahsa are probably too regular to be mistaken for a natlang,
> i.e. they're not "naturalistic" in the sense that we use the word for
> describing artlangs.

Indeed.  They do not feel like natlangs and are not naturalistic in
the artlangers' sense.  Actually, hardly any auxlang is; indeed, any
naturalistic (in the artlangers' sense) conlang would be rejected out
of hand by virtually every auxlanger on this planet on the grounds
that it incurs the same kind of problems (except, maybe, cultural bias
if it is a priori) that speak against using a natlang as language of
international communication (too complex and irregular grammar and all
that), so we are dealing with two disjoint sets here!

>       And an alternate-history Romance artlang like 
> Brithenig or Wenedyk is based on roughly the same source language
> material as Interlingua or Occidental, but I doubt Interlinguans would
> consider them naturalistic in the sense in which they use the term to
> assert that Interlingua is better than Esperanto or Ido according to
> their ideas of what an auxlang should be like.

Probably.  Auxlangers tend not to take artlangs seriously.  But why
should they?  These languages are not designed to solve the world
language problem, and thus they should not be put to that.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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