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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  September 2009, Week 2

CONLANG September 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Universality of discreteness

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:23:40 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

Hallo!

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 02:11:22 -0700, Sai Emrys wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier<[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote: 
> > Those morphemes that are iconic are iconic *by convention*.
> > Other languages use different morphemes - which may even not be iconic.
> 
> Oh, of course; I didn't think that was even in question. I see
> conventionality and discreteness as fairly disjoint.

It seems to me that we are talking past each other.

What I was trying to say is that discreteness is a *necessary
condition* for conventionality.  If two similar morphemes which
could in theory be transformed into each other by gradually
changing one of the phonemes (such as /pet/ and /pit/) have
entirely different meanings, *you need some sort of cutoff point*
between them where it stops meaning one thing and starts meaning
the other thing.  Let's take as an example these very two morphemes
in English.  What is intermediate between a pet and a pit?  NOTHING.
Something intermediate between /pet/ and /pit/ *cannot* mean
anything intermediate between 'pet' and 'pit' because that does
not make any sense.  It can only mean either 'pet' or 'pit', or
something yet completely different if anything at all.

I hope you understand now why languages always operate with discrete
signs.  Graded signs are only useful in *iconic* communication
systems, and I have never ever heard of a natlang which uses graded
signs as morphemes (as opposed to *paralinguistic* graded signs such
as speaking louder for emphasis, or slower to help the listener get
the message).  I don't claim that there are never any subsets of
morphemes which can be considered "graded" (i.e., cases where, for
instance, /tek/ means 'small' and /tik/ means 'tiny') - but even
such morphemes would be "rastered" by the discreteness of the phoneme
inventory of the language, and that they *appear* to be graded signs
has no bearing on the fact that human languages are *by principle*
discrete systems.

Elkaril gets about as far with graded signs as any language can get
with them - and it uses them in only limited domains.  The vast
majority of the morphemes of Elkaril are entirely discrete and
conventional.

> It seems that you're saying the rule ought to be phrased as something like:
> 
> "In all languages, the majority of morphemes are discrete."

In fact, *all* morphemes are discrete entities because they are built
from phonemes, which are discrete.  Maybe, /tek/ means 'small' and
/tik/ means 'tiny', but if there is no phoneme intermediate between
/e/ and /i/, these morphemes are at best "pseudo-graded", and anything
between [tek] and [tik] is either /tek/ or /tik/.  It is perhaps
possible that something like Elkaril is spoken somewhere in the
universe, but I must say that the idea does not convince me much.
 
> That seems entirely unobjectionable to me - it's just the claim that
> *all* morphemes are that I'm skeptical of. (Perhaps I'm simply
> misunderstanding what's being claimed?)

You asked whether discreteness was a necessary universal, and I said
yes, and detailed why my answer was "yes".  Graded (or "pseudo-graded")
signs may occur within limited domains in languages, but the fact
remains that a language, in order to be symbolic and conventional,
must work as a whole with discrete phonemes and discrete morphemes.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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