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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  September 2009, Week 2

CONLANG September 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Sketch of New Conlang

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Sep 2009 03:06:18 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (109 lines)

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 16:41:29 -0400, Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Is there such a thing as ... forgive this horrible name ... an 'IPA
>for written language'? 
[...]
>Some of the variations which can be either meaningful or not are,
>which direction a letter is facing, how tall it is, whether a
>particular shape is closed ( <c> versus <o> versus some peoples' <u>,
>some peoples' <u> versus <a>, perhaps <F> versus <P> ... am I right in
>recalling <>=written?), boldness of a line, 'crossed-ness', etc.
>
>However, such a system might need to admit that letters are
>fundamentally made up of 'strokes', which obviously would make things
>pretty complicated.

Would it?  I'd think that that might make a good starting point.  Certainly
for an articulatorily-oriented description system, at least.  Perhaps not so
much for an acoustically-oriented one, unless you set up a good system of
equivalences and method of canonicalisation between different ways of
drawing the same thing.  

In any case, strokes are easy to describe, and there are several obvious
sorts of features of one you might want to describe and phonemicise in your
IGA: is the absolute position at various points of the stroke significant? 
the position with respect to points of other strokes in the glyph? 
direction, at points or along stretches?  curvature, at points or along
stretches?  ...

On Tue, Sep 08, 2009 at 01:57:16PM -0700, David Peterson wrote:

>(e.g. you can turn the dot of a lower case <i> into an x,
>a skull, a circle, a heart or even a squiggle without any problems,
>but removing the dot completely makes it look strange [and, of
>course, is vital in a language like Turkish]).  

Heh, that dot's rarely there in my own (unprettied) handwriting; the main
remnant of it is in the allograph <s> takes after an <i>.  What looks
strange is an <i> without any sort of bend or serif at the top left, whereas
a three-quarter circle open to the bottom is a quite ordinary <i>...

>One problem that occurs to me immediately, though, is the variance
>in writing implement.  The difference between a brush and a pen
>can be considered trivial when compared to the implement used
>to write Cuneiform.  For that script, the notion of a "stroke" is
>meaningless--as is where to start (though I'm sure there were
>generalities that emerged).  What would one do for that?  Would
>there be separate "IPA"-like systems for different writing instruments?

Hm, good question.  Cuneiform did come from an earlier system of glyphs made
of lines scratched into clay, basically IIRC by rendering each line segment
as a single straight wedge, and certain corners (dependent on direction?) as
a Winkelhaken.  So that suggests something.  On the other hand, maybe that's
no better an idea than trying to handle whistled languages with the spoken IPA.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:32:23 -0400, Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Right now I'm imagining
>maybe my language was originally written by gluing string to paper or
>something, because the basic physics is that continued lines are
>heavily preferred and those lines can't make corners, just curves.

Jeff Jones' K'tle script has most of the characters topologically distinct;
it's a slight modification of one he and Jim Henry did at LCC3, where they
all did.  In one discussion (offlist?) we came up with the idea that the
K'tle characters might have originally been simply pieces of string tied in
various ways, for in that medium you couldn't distinguish topologically
equivalent characters at all.

>I'd forgotten about MetaFont! :D
>
>It allows exploration of the space of English orthography basically,
>right? 

No, it's rather more general-purpose than that.  Basically what it lets you
do is define your own parametrised family of font, with the characters of
whatever fundamental shape you like: you can choose as parameters the
positions or width or slopes or curvatures or ... of various strokes or
classes of strokes or ...   in particular it would apply just as well to any
script, not just the Roman.  But of course you can only vary the parameters
which you explicitly code in -- expect to need new ones for each new font
you want to make the family include -- and it offers no help with the
problem of _distinguishing_ what characters are recognisable As, or anything.  

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 16:24:09 -0700, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>When I built my pictographic conlang many years ago I devised a system
>I called LOTEP to categorize characters so that I could put them into
>some kind of sensible dictionary order.
>
>The LOTEP number is a 5-digit number describing the gross features of
>the character as follows:
[...]

In particular the LOTEP number is an invariant of the topology of the glyph.  

I guess that's another place you could start with your system, describing
topology of glyphs.  Assuming there's no filled areas or anything like that,
every glyph is a graph embedded in the plane (which is more data than just a
planar graph!).  That is, you have a collection of vertices and some edges
between them, which don't cross each other (else you'd put a vertex at the
crossing), and around each vertex you know the cyclic order the edges go in.
 That seems like a fairly describable structure, and you can set out a
description of which graphs are similar to which others, and thus likely to
be in alloglyphic relation (perhaps just a matter of counting an edge edit
distance between them).  And once you have the graph structure you can adorn
it somehow with position / orientation / ... data.  

Alex

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