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CONLANG  September 2009, Week 2

CONLANG September 2009, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Writing systems

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:27:31 +0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (100 lines)

Much agreed on the point of Chinese characters—
But I learnt in school that cursive "X" is to be written ) then (… Is that a
regional thing?

Eugene

2009/9/10 Paul Hartzer <[log in to unmask]>

> ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "<deinx nxtxr>" <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > David Peterson wrote:
> >
> > >> However, such a system might need to admit that letters are
> > >> fundamentally made up of 'strokes', which obviously would make things
> > >> pretty complicated.
> > >
> > > At the very least, this, I believe, is how Chinese dictionaries work
> > > (characters are arranged by how many strokes are used to write
> > > them).
> >
> > They are ordered by radicals *and* stroke-count.
>
> (This email contains Chinese symbols which may not come through in all mail
> readers.)
>
> For those unfamiliar with Chinese characters:
>
> Most Chinese characters are historically complex in that they consist of
> multiple smaller characters combined into a larger one. For instance, 人
> (man) and 十 (ten) combine into 什 (tenth). For the complex characters, one of
> the component characters is identified as the radical; it's usually the
> highest or leftmost, but not always; the exceptions are sometimes
> predictable, sometimes guesswork, and to my understanding different
> dictionaries have different opinions (at least between Chinese and Japanese
> dictionaries). In the case of 什 (tenth), the radical is 人 (man). Characters
> are listed first by the number of strokes in the radical (so all 人-based
> characters are listed together, as 2) and then by the number of strokes
> needed to complete the character (so 什 would be listed with the 2 stroke
> characters in the 人 entry under the 2 stroke radicals). (See
> http://www.mandarintools.com/chardict_rs.html for an example listing of
> radicals.)
>
> Because of the complexity of the characters, it's important that people
> know how many strokes it takes to make a character, and Chinese has strict
> rules about strokes, stroke direction, and stroke order. 囗 (enclosure)
> consists of *3* strokes (not 4, which outsiders might expect), in this
> order: the left bar, the top and right bars in a fluid stroke, and the
> bottom bar. Any other way of drawing that character is considered incorrect.
>
> The Latin alphabet, obviously, has fewer rules about stroke order and
> stroke, and many of them are more intuitive than formal. Lower case t, for
> instance, can be written as one stroke (where the tail of the upright comes
> around to form the crossbar) or two strokes; when written as two strokes,
> the second (crossbar) stroke can be written immediately after the upright or
> after the entire word has been written (e.g., a word like "stippling"
> written in cursive would commonly be written roughly as "sllppllng" with the
> crossbar and dots added afterward). Also, the Latin alphabet allows for
> alternate forms of several characters; "a" and "g" are obvious examples.
> Latin X and Cyrillic X are have the same strokes in printed style, but
> different in cursive; the Latin cursive is the same as printed: \ and then
> /, while the Cyrillic cursive is ) and then (. Also, Latin t and Cyrillic т
> are similar and have roughly the same phonemic value, but Cyrillic cursive т
>  looks like Latin cursive m. Even when stroke order is the same, stroke
> direction might be different. I've seen 9, for instance, written both
> starting at the tail and finishing with the loop and starting at the loop
> and finishing with the tail.
>
> On top of all this, another consideration is relative stroke placement. The
> goal in Chinese is to fit each character into a mental rectangle which is
> the same size from character to character, and in which the strokes are
> distributed at predictable heights. Certainly there's some variability based
> on individual writers, but while the Chinese system can be characterized in
> terms of absolute placement with variation, the Latin alphabet (as it's
> handwritten) can better be characterized in terms of relative placement: the
> crossbar on the t should be higher than the tail of the L, which is higher
> than the tail of the j. Even there, there's some inconsistency: should the
> upper join on d be the same height, lower, or higher than the crossbar on
> the t? I believe I've seen all three.
>
> None of this says it's impossible to create a dictionary of possible
> strokes, but if such a thing existed, there are significant issues to
> consider. Since order and direction are so important in Chinese, we'd have
> to decide how to treat those; off hand, I'd say they're similar to issues
> like tone, so they'd get their own marking. Also note that even in Chinese,
> the radicals are often written differently depending on what character
> they're part of. On http://www.mandarintools.com/, 人 (man) is the radical
> in 以 (to use, rightmost), 今 (today, topmost), 任 (trust, leftmost), and 仄
> (oblique tone, bottommost). In a Chinese dictionary, 人 is listed once with
> the other characters listed with it. However, in a truly graph-based (rather
> than grapheme-based) dictionary, presumably each manifestation of 人 would
> have to be listed separately.
>
> -- Paul
>
>
>
>
>

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