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CONLANG  September 2009, Week 4

CONLANG September 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Subjunctive nouns

From:

Matthew Turnbull <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:19:27 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (70 lines)

I think if I saw something like that in a natlang, I might think that the
subjunctive marker on the noun was a clitic that belonged with the verb, If
I had diachronic infomation, I might be disinclined. Mind you I'm no
professional, and I figure that someone with more linguistic knowledge might
be better suited to comment.
Very cool diachronics btw.

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out a way to embed uncertainty about others into
> the language. So historically I was thinking the 'subjunctive case'
> would have come from a system of noun-verb tense agreement, which
> though long-unraveled would still be somewhat preserved when politely
> referring to people, because saying to someone 'you are happy' would
> be impolite because you are making a claim they might disagree with.
> The most polite form would be something like 'your appearance suggests
> you might be happy', but this then gets shortened to 'you might be
> happy' for ordinary speech.
>
> So to put it more clearly: In the old speech there is a verb meaning
> 'be happy' and a separate tense marker indicating the subjunctive, and
> people tell each other literally "it makes sense you might be happy"
> meaning "you look happy". Then, people start just saying 'you might be
> happy', the pronoun 'you', the verb 'be happy', and the subjunctive
> present particle.
>
> Then I was thinking the particle would attach to both the verb and the
> noun, something I'm not sure would really happen, to create a system
> of tense agreement between verbs and nouns. Within this system
> sentences like "I liked the old ways better" would mark 'ways' as past
> but 'like' and 'I' as present.
>
> Then my idea is that nouns lose tense inflection except for
> subjunctive, while verbs stop marking subjunctive. This then is the
> modern situation, in which 'you look happy' marks 'you' as subjunctive
> and 'happy' as present. 'The hypothetical you (the one I hypothesized
> upon seeing you) is happy.'
>
> But maybe I don't in fact want "agreement" in the middle language,
> since my example allows separate tenses for noun and verb anyway. I
> could instead have separate tense and mood particles in the early
> language, and one turns to an adverb and then a tense system, the
> other into an adjective and then a case system.
>
> :) It seems I've put off messing with my phonology and gone mostly to
> jotting down grammatical ideas for the past week, though I still keep
> trying to design the alphabet.
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > To me, personally, the subjunctive doesn't quite mesh with politeness—the
> > uncertainty would more be over whether Your Majesty would like your
> humble
> > servant to do such and such, rather than Your Majesty being an uncertain
> > person, and other such.
> > But do you have an example sentence to show us how you think it should
> work?
> >
> > Eugene
> >
> > 2009/9/21 Daniel Demski <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> >> What do you think of nouns marked for subjunctive? I'm not sure
> >> whether all nouns in subjunctive sentence or clause would be marked;
> >> it would seem much better to just mark the uncertain one. I'd also
> >> like to require for politeness that people be in subjunctive, as well
> >> as certain objects.
> >>
> >
>

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