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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  October 2009, Week 3

CONLANG October 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Recycling letters (<: Using <x> as a vowel)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:37:01 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

<deinx nxtxr> wrote:
> R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> But you wrote that Deini's use of a symbol that Deini's use of <x>, 

[snip]
> You seem to have those mixed up.  SASXSEK uses <x> only in compounds 

You didn't mention Deini. Mea culpa!

What you actually wrote is quoted below......
------------------------------------

maikxlx wrote:
 > On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 2:39 AM, <deinx nxtxr> 
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
 >
 >> I don't mind an orthography that looks "odd".  To some 
extent any foreign
 >> orthography looks that way to some degree or another.  I 
don't think <x> for
 >> /ə/ is any worse than Welsh's use of <w> as a vowel.

"worse" seems to imply a value judgment.

But, personally, I don't find a 20th century conlang 
innovation quite on a par with a natlang tradition going 
back a few centuries to some time in the Middle Ages. But, I 
don't think deinx & I are going to agree on that; so let's 
just leave it - we've both made our points. End!

 >
 > Oh, I don't mind odd-looking orthographies so much for 
languages with
 > a-priori vocabularies like say Lojban, but when the 
vocabulary in question
 > is a-posteriori with mostly Latin roots, sometimes it 
just doesn't "feel"
 > quite right.  Sometimes even <k> replacing <c> in Latin 
roots annoys me,

Yes, it worried Jespersen way back in the 1930s with Novial. 
It began with /k/ always represented by <k>, but by the end 
of the 1930s a spelling more typical of the Romance 
languages had replaced the earlier one.

In my view, it depends upon the language. If one is 
constructing a Romance conlang then indeed <c> should IMO be 
retained for /k/ in all situations except before /e/ and /i/ 
(and /E/, if that is included). But if it's an a_posteriori 
auxlang, then probably <k> is better.

 > let alone <tc> for /tS/ or <x> for a vowel.
 > But I do it because it's efficient
 > and keeps the spelling system within the 7-bit ASCII range.

Yep - if one restricts oneself to 7-bit ASCII then we must 
expect some strange conventions, e.g. <q> = /T/     ;)

 > By the way, here's another neat use for <x> I've had in 
some of my sketches,
 > for good languages with both alveolar and postalvelor 
affricates:
 >
 > <c x s z> /ts dz s z/
 >
 > Then digraphs can be formed with /h/ or /j/:
 >
 >  <ch xh sh zh> /tS dZ S Z/

Albanian's beaten you to it, except that it chooses <ç> 
rather than <ch>, making it 7-bit ASCII unfriendly   ;)

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 4:08 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> > I've not encountered <q> = /θ/ in conlangs (but that does not mean it's not
>> > used that way, but it is often conventionally used in Net transliterations
>> > of Greek to represent the Greek θ (theta), which in modern Greek is
>> > pronounced /θ/.
>> >
> <q> is used for /T/ in Loglan, though it's only allowed in names.  I guess
> there is vague graphic resemblance between <q> and theta when squinting
> really hard.

 From what I understand, the reason we have <q> = theta 
(Ancient Greek /t_h/;  Byzantine & Modern Greek /T/) in Beta 
Code is the resemblance of upper case Q and Θ.
--------------------------------------------

Kelvin Jackson wrote:
 >> <q> is used for /T/ in Loglan, though it's only allowed 
in names.  I
 >> guess
 >> there is vague graphic resemblance between <q> and theta 
when squinting
 >> really hard.
 >
 > Or resemblance between <q> and thorn (<þ>).

That may possibly have helped also in the case of Lojban 
where the sound is quite specifically /T/.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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