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CONLANG  October 2009, Week 3

CONLANG October 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Troubles with my Germanesque orthography

From:

Craig Daniel <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:39:25 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (99 lines)

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:00 AM, Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 2009/10/20 Craig Daniel <[log in to unmask]>:
>> 2. <c> presently only exists in the digraph <ch> (representing /x/),
>> which seems odd to me.
>
> Well, <c> in German is essentially limited to <sch ch ck>; it hardly
> ever occurs on its own. (Which is why German Braille felt free to
> re-use it as an abbreviation for the <en> sequence; if you do need a
> single <c> you have to escape it.)

Yeah, I'm really only noticing the scarcity of it because I got rid of
<sch> and at least presently am using <kk> instead of <ck> for /k:/.

>> (All instances of /k/ are represented by <k>,
>> including /k:/ being <kk>.)
>
> You have phonemically long/geminate consonants? That's unusual for a
> German-alike IMO, though an interesting twist.

Yup. They can either represent survivals of MHG geminates (eg. ritter
"nobleman" < MHG ritter "knight, rider") or assimilation of certain
consonant clusters (eg. siggen "to sing" < MHG singen).

>> Options I am entertaining:
>>
>> 1. No change; <c> is just weird.
>> 2. <ch> becomes <c>, which seems odd.
>> 3. <ch> gives way to a different grapheme, possibly due to Slavic
>> influence, and the letter <c> falls out of use entirely.
>
> <h> seems the only other obvious character to me for /x/, but I
> presume you're already using that for /h/. Not sure whether you want
> to use a character that's ambiguous between /h/ and /x/. (I presume
> you don't want to go non-ASCII, though many natlangs did go that
> route.)

I have no problem with going non-ASCII, although I dislike the
prospect of diacritics unattested in Germanic languages.

> But Slavic influence could just as well preserve <ch>; IIRC, at least
> Czech and Polish use that combination for /x/ (Polish together with
> plain <h>).

Czech is the nearest neighbor aside from German, so my inclination is
toward keeping the <ch> because that's what both of them use.

>> 4. <c> is used to spell /tS/, solving two problems at once but not in
>> a way I think likely for a 19th-century orthographic system. (Again,
>> I'd blame Slavic influence.)
>
> Slavic would be more likely to influence <c> towards /ts)/, in my
> mind. (Do you have that sound in your language? It's fairly common in
> German, after all. And is, indeed, spelled with <c> in some loan-words
> :D - though less so nowadays since many occurrances got re-spelled
> with <z>.)

I'm currently spelling /ts/ as <tz>, with <z> otherwise representing a
sound whose phonetic value I am undecided on - it's from MHG <sz>,
which represents some sort of /s/-like sound derived from
proto-Germanic *t. (It's /s/ in German, and that's my current
preference for Ruiten <z>, making <s> and <z> have the same phonetic
value, but I'm also thinking about merging it with <sh> instead.) The
other affricate present is of course /pf/, which I spell <ph>
(apparently one of two attested MHG spellings, alongside <pf>).

>> 5. Potentially alongside any of the above (and without increase in
>> orthographic ambiguity) <kk> becomes <ck>, raising the frequency of
>> <c> a bit.
>
> That would make it look more German/English and less Danish/Dutch. I
> don't know who else uses <ck> for /k/, off-hand.

Luxembourgish, another close relative of German, also has <ck>, but
I'm not 100% sure it represents /k/.

>> Aesthetically, I'm going for something that looks a lot like German
>> while still being recognizably not German at a glance (hence little
>> things like sch instead of sh and some weirdness with the vowels).
>
> Off-hand, I'd say keep <ch> and <kk>; the "<c> hardly occurs by
> itself" is attested in "real" German, and the <kk> will contribute to
> making it distinctly not-Germany. (And is something that I think would
> make the spelling more regular anyway; why <pp tt> but not <kk>? Not
> to mention the behaviour in traditional German orthography that <ck>
> is hyphenated as <k-k>, which makes things harder for computers. The
> revised orthography side-stepped that by hyphenating it as <-ck>, but
> that's pretty odd IMO and also drops the syllable-closing marker
> function of the double consonant.)

Hm. It occurs to me that another way to do it would actually be to use
<ck> for /k:/ that is retained from MHG (which generally spells it
thus) and use <kk> for innovative /k:/, thereby contrasting eg. decken
"to cover" (< MHG decken) with dekken "to think" (< MHG denken) in
writing. (I'm already maintaining the orthographic  despite its
merger with either a or e depending on context, so similar archaisms
are not out of place.)

 - CBD

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