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CONLANG  October 2009, Week 3

CONLANG October 2009, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Demonstratives and personal pronouns (was Re: CHAT: Linguistic misapprehensions)

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:22:52 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (63 lines)

FWIW, "anata" literally means "your esteemed direction", and was formerly a
term of high deference (as was the now-pejorative "kisama"). Hence one might
logically extrapolate the polite 2p pronoun from that. Possibly there is no
"konata" because "-nata" connotes deference and one does not refer to
oneself deferentially. However, "kochira" (lit "this direction") is used to
refer politely to e.g. someone you're introducing, and "sochira" to a person
whose name you are seeking. Now we also have "kochira-sama" etc. for extra
politeness
Japanese pronouns tend to go through a rapid euphemism treadmill indeed.

An interesting point to note is that rather than a simple
proximal-medial-distal relationship, the Japanese "ko-, so-, a-" series
referred to relative distance and familiarity. So even if I in London were
talking to you in San Francisco on the phone, I would refer to something in
San Francisco (where I've never been) using "so-", while something in
Manchester (where we've both been before) would be referred to using "a-".

Likewise with people. If you tell me something about a person I don't know
(have never heard of), I would ask you questions about him using "sono
hito"; if you tell me something about a person we both know (have heard of),
I would use "ano hito".

A little complicated, but a simplistic conclusion would be that the "ko- so-
a" series came to reflect social distance more.

Eugene

2009/10/16 Peter Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>

> staving Eric Christopherson:
>
>  I've wondered many times, so I guess I might as well ask, in case anyone
>> knows:
>> 1. Do any languages have their 1st-/2nd-/3rd-person pronouns transparently
>> related to their proximal/medial/distal demonstratives?
>>
> Japanese makes you think it's going to do that, but then does something
> else instead
>                Near me     Near you      Far     What
> Deictic pronoun kore        sore          are     dare
> Demonstrative   kono        sono          ano     dono
>
> The form "donata" meaning "who" leads you to believe you might have the
> following pronouns
> I         You       He/She      Who
> konata    sonata    anata       donata
> "anata" does exist, but it means "you", not he. I have not come across the
> forms *konata and *sonata in my limited experience of Japanese.
>
>  2. Do personal pronouns ever derive historically from demonstratives, or
>> vice versa?
>>
> Yes, this is typical in Romance languages, where they usually derive from
> Latin ille (as do definite articles).
>
>> 3. Does person/number/gender agreement marking on verbs, or possessive
>> marking on nouns, ever derive from demonstratives?
>>
>>  Don't know this one.
>
> Pete
>

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